Episode 68. The “M Word”: The Essential Tool You Didn’t Know About
The M Word That Brought Us Back
There was a season in our marriage when everything felt a little… off.
We weren’t fighting. We weren’t in crisis. But something was missing. We were doing all the “right” things—showing up, checking in, managing the schedule, keeping the wheels turning. But under the surface? We were drifting. Numb. Stuck in old patterns that didn’t feel like us anymore.
Then we tried something that neither of us expected to work. It felt a little awkward. A little woo-woo. Definitely out of character.
But it changed everything.
And no—it wasn’t therapy.
Or more date nights.
Or reading another marriage book.
It was something way quieter.
Way simpler.
And way more powerful than we imagined.
The Moment That Shifted My Thinking
Years ago, I heard the story of Joshua Bell, a world-renowned violinist who played a free concert in a Washington D.C. subway station. He used a $3.5 million Stradivarius violin. He played some of the most beautiful music ever written.
And almost no one stopped to listen.
People were too busy. Too distracted. Too unaware of the extraordinary moment happening right in front of them.
That story haunted me.
Because I realized—I was doing the same thing in my marriage.
Missing beauty. Missing connection. Missing the music of my relationship… because I wasn’t paying attention.
So What Helped Us Tune Back In?
It wasn’t another big conversation.
Or a perfectly timed getaway.
It was something we now refer to (half-jokingly) as “the M word.”
Meditation.
I know—just reading that word might make you want to roll your eyes. Believe me, I’ve been there. But what we found in those few minutes of stillness every day wasn’t about chanting or becoming “Zen.”
It was about learning to pause.
To stop reacting on autopilot.
To notice each other again.
To breathe before speaking.
To soften instead of snap.
That simple act—sitting in silence together, even for two minutes—started to rewire the emotional tone of our marriage.
Why It Works
The research backs it up. Studies show that regular mindfulness meditation can:
Strengthen parts of the brain tied to empathy and emotion regulation
Reduce stress and emotional reactivity
Break the grip of old habits and toxic conflict patterns
Help couples feel more seen, more safe, and more connected
In our real life? It looked like this:
Fewer pointless arguments
More patience
A softer tone
And a surprising return of intimacy—not just physical, but emotional
How to Start (Even If You’re Skeptical)
Here’s what worked for us (and what we now recommend to couples all the time):
Start small. Just 2–5 minutes a day. Focus on your breath. No pressure to be perfect.
Sit together. Back-to-back, side-by-side—whatever works. Let silence become shared space.
Use loving-kindness phrases. Silently say: “May my partner feel loved. May we grow in understanding.”
Bring mindfulness into your day. Slow down. Put the phone down during dinner. Make eye contact. Actually listen.
It will feel weird at first. That’s normal. But stick with it. Because beneath the awkwardness is something deeply healing.
Want to Hear the Full Story?
We talk all about it in this week's Marriage IQ podcast episode:
🎧 The M Word: The Essential Tool You Didn’t Know About
We share:
Why we were hesitant to try it
What changed when we did
The science that explains why it works
And how you can start—without needing a guru or hours of free time
👉 Click here to listen to the episode
You don’t have to fix your marriage overnight.
But you can learn to pause.
To be present.
To notice the music again.
Sometimes healing starts with just a breath.
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[00:00:00 - 00:00:22]
Welcome back, everyone, to another exciting episode. We're picking up where we left off last time with Mark and Janie Ogletree. Mark has been a therapist for over, what, 30 years, and we're tapping some of his knowledge along with his wife Janie. They've raised eight children together and we're just excited to have them back.[00:00:22 - 00:00:31]
We love how we get the clinical experience, the research experience, and the real life experience with this duo.[00:00:31 - 00:00:32]
They're really great. Thank you so much.[00:00:32 - 00:00:34]
Thanks for inviting us.[00:00:34 - 00:00:39]
Yeah. So how do you see time starved marriages impacting mental health?[00:00:39 - 00:01:44]
Well, I think that's a great, that's a great question. You know, when you think of a marriage that's healthy and a couple who's spending a lot of time together and they're basically refueling each other and replenishing each other, there's great energy that comes from that relationship. When that marriage relationship is time starved now, needs aren't being met. And when needs aren't being met, this is where stress can start creeping in and frustration and even anger. Well, just the word mental health, that's a really broad, you know, broad term. But all of our own mental health could be at risk just from stress, right? Just from the stress that we have and just from the frustration and anger that we feel. Then when you have unmet needs in any relationship, often anger is the result that anger doesn't always come out just outwardly. It could be really inward, you know, which a lot of people will say, well, that's what depression is, when that anger turns inside. And so, yes, certainly a time starved marriage could impact mental health, just as a healthy, happy marriage can, can affect mental health in such a positive way.[00:01:45 - 00:01:50]
And would you say that busyness factor also really can contribute to anxiety?[00:01:51 - 00:01:54]
Yes, my wife can probably write a whole book on that. Right, honey?[00:01:55 - 00:01:56]
Just from watching.[00:01:56 - 00:02:28]
Yeah, yeah. I think once again, when you're so busy and you're not replenishing yourself with what we all need, you know, and I, and I would say people certainly need physical exercise, which is one of the first things to go when people get busy, people need to be grounded in some way. And if that's a spiritual way, like it is for a lot of us, then that becomes crucial. And that's also something that tends to go by the wayside when we're over busy. And so there are a lot of factors like that that contribute for sure to our marriages, to our mental health, to this time starved idea.[00:02:29 - 00:03:58]
So this whole idea of busy, I just want to unpack it a little bit. Mark. Because when you say the word busy, it conjures up doing something all the time. And it's interesting when you bring this word up, busy, that we're busy, busy, busy all the time. Which I don't deny that that's true. However, in my practice as a physician, when I talk about the importance of exercise, which the vast majority of people don't do, they talk about they're just too busy. They're too busy. I could go on with diet, but I'm going to stick with exercise for right now. Yeah, yeah. So I, I sit there thinking, huh, I own my own business. Oh, we do. I'm a full time physician. I'm on call 24 7. I do a freaking marriage podcast on the weekends. I'm pretty busy. And yet I find time to do exercise every morning. And so I, I just, I'm wondering about this word and this idea of busyness. Is it true? Is the story I'm telling myself actually reality? And so I'll sit there with my patients and go through some of their, their schedule if we have time and find, oh Yeah, I got 20 minutes here. So is it that you're really too busy or you just really don't want to do it?[00:03:59 - 00:03:59]
Yeah.[00:04:00 - 00:04:09]
And so it's hard because I, I think we wear that term busyness as like a badge of honor, you know, I'm so busy.[00:04:09 - 00:04:10]
Status symbol, isn't it?[00:04:11 - 00:04:59]
And, and so just to take a moment there on that word busy, because going back to marriage, you know, we're so busy with our kids with all these things going on. I'd like to look at all these people, put a camera, a hidden camera on their life and see how much time they actually have as downtime. And I, I think, I know they will be shocked because we've done studies on these things and we know that people's perception of their time and what they do with their life and the busyness they have is actually far, far exaggerated or exaggerated. Over exaggerated by a significant amount. So anyway, we do have time to put on our marriage.[00:05:00 - 00:05:01]
Yeah, right. We actually do.[00:05:02 - 00:05:04]
What's your grounding on our.[00:05:05 - 00:05:37]
Yeah. To be intentional, to find time to put all this into action so we can avoid anxiety. Because anxiety is basically a condition of reactivity. Yes, it's fear about the future, but it's also a highly reactive type of condition, nervous system. And when we're thinking we're busy all the time and we just spend our entire lives reacting to things, that's not going to be a good starting point for Healthy mental health. Right?[00:05:37 - 00:06:38]
Yeah. And what I would say, I think, first of all, Scott, good take on that. I think busyness is a relative term. No question about it. In fact, I remember when we were early on married, I bet we'd been married for a few months. And Janie's dad called me one day, we were talking on the phone, he said, how's it going? I go, oh my gosh, it's just so busy. And he started laughing, you know, he just started laughing. Here we were, college student, you know, no kid, just in college and working. And, and he's here he is laughing with eight. Eight kids of his own, trying, you know, going in every direction. But yeah, busyness is a relative term. No question about it. Just as people, we've all noticed this, but people spend their money on different things, right? Have you ever been surprised by that? Where you're like, wow, these people have all this money, but they, they don't seem to do this or this or this. It's the same way with busyness, I think, and that is that we all focus in different areas and we think that we're so busy. You know, I've heard people tell me how busy they are, and then you find out they're, wait, they wake up at 10 o' clock in the morning. You're not busy if you're waking up at 10 o', clock.[00:06:40 - 00:06:43]
But they were up at 3 o' clock in the morning getting their flights.[00:06:43 - 00:07:16]
Yes. Or something like that. Maybe, but. But yeah. So I, I do, I think that priorities drive all of that. What is it that we really care about? If exercise is a real priority, you'll do it, right? If your family is a top priority. Really? Because we know that's the right answer to say our marriage and family at the top of the list. But are they really? If we never spend time with our spouses or our children? No, that's not your priority. And so I think aligning our desires and priorities are crucial. But busyness is a relative. It's a relative term.[00:07:17 - 00:07:37]
I like what you said that it's the new status symbol. You know, that's the first thing. How are you doing? Oh, so busy. And I think it's like a thing in our culture now that if you're not busy, you're unproductive or you're not accomplishing. But I like what you said. I mean, so many people, they have time for golf, but, you know, they don't have time to spend with their wife or they have time for Facebook.[00:07:37 - 00:07:39]
Or Instagram or Whatever.[00:07:39 - 00:07:46]
Yeah. The hours we spent, you know, mindlessly scrolling, you know, that we, if we took that time for our priorities.[00:07:46 - 00:07:56]
I think it's always easy when we pick our phones up and see that, the little gauge that tells us how much we've been on social media that week, you're like, there's no possible way. I. And it's like 12 hours or whatever.[00:07:56 - 00:08:24]
Anyway, I would like to drill down just a little bit more on mental health that perhaps isn't caused by busyness. It may be amplified by busyness. But in our family, we've got some mental health issues that come from a number of different things. From hormones, from traumatic circumstances, from the genetics, whether the genetics, whether the sun is shining or not.[00:08:25 - 00:08:26]
Right, right.[00:08:26 - 00:08:57]
Some of those things. And it can be truly a challenge to a lot of marriages when anxiety or depression or OCD or other bipolar are an issue in the marriage. What, what's been your take on that as you've served as a therapist? How do you help couples in marriages, especially when one spouse has the mental illness and the other is either a caretaker or trying to fix them or trying to work around that?[00:08:57 - 00:11:40]
Yeah. Let me just share with you. Maybe I can answer two questions in the one that you and you asked. Number one, anxiety, stress, depression are at, you know, all time levels. I mean, research tells us that in every place you look. You know, the, the generalized anxiety rate in our country runs about 30% right now with adults and youth and so. And what's the cause of that? Well, part of the cause of that in my mind. Back to the global village, right? We can learn about every crazy thing in the world that's going on in five minutes. And, you know, in the 1950s, we would have never even heard of half of the things that are on the news today. So back to the global village idea of we brought everything right into our own personal lives and we have ready access to it, and it's causing crazy levels of stress and anxiety, especially among our youth. Right. And in my mind, one of the best things parents can do today is equip their young people with grit and moxie and teach them how to do hard things because they're not learning those skills anymore. Kids don't work all summer mowing lawns like we did, you know, when we grew up and doing hard things like that. And so we've got to, we need to introduce that. Otherwise we're going to have a generation that's going to be in big, big TROUBLE, you know, 20 years from now when people just can't handle anything. So there's part one. Part two is, you know, what do you do if you're in a marriage relationship? And Janie, please chime in on this one. But one of the greatest things that a spouse can do when the other spouse has mental health issues is, number one, to be empathetic. You know, because a lot of times people, if you've never been depressed, really, like, real depression, you. You don't get it. If you've never had real anxiety, you have no clue that you have a spouse who's actually trembling and shaking and they can't even breathe sometimes and they don't even know why. And if you have a spouse that's like, hey, buck up and get out there. That. That's not the answer to that. So we want. We want empathy, but at the same time, I want a spouse that will push me. And Janie's been good at that because I have had my own anxiety about, you know, a time or two in our marriage. She's been really good to say, okay, guess what? It's going to be okay. It's going to be totally fine. So a spouse that can also give reassurance, because if I present to her the worst case scenario in the world, and she looks at me and says, that's going to be totally fine. She even told me that last night I saw some crazy email about something, and I go, man, should we do something about this? She goes, I'm not worried about that. I go, oh, okay. And I was totally okay. I'm not worried either. If you're not worried, I'm not worried.[00:11:40 - 00:11:45]
That's a very grounding presence. Janie. That's really a great attribute is.[00:11:45 - 00:11:46]
And she probably gets tired of it.[00:11:47 - 00:11:58]
But no, but it. Like he talked about in the beginning when Mark was first learning that he had anxiety. And it was kind of funny because he was treating people for anxiety but couldn't see it in himself.[00:11:58 - 00:12:05]
And I used to read the symptoms to people in my practice and go, that is so funny. I have every one of these symptoms, but good thing I don't have anxiety. You know.[00:12:07 - 00:12:08]
What are, what are the symptoms?[00:12:09 - 00:12:23]
Oh, you just. On a general level. Yeah. Well, excessive worry and fear, for starters. Irritability, not sleeping well. You know, you have a hard time sleeping. You have a hard time concentrating and focusing.[00:12:24 - 00:12:25]
Heart racing.[00:12:25 - 00:12:37]
Yeah, you could have a racing heart. And there's 20 or 30 symptoms you can really get into, but those are some of the general ones. And, you know, like I said, I read that and go, that's so funny. I have every one of those, but I don't have anxiety.[00:12:37 - 00:12:39]
Good thing, because you're functioning so well.[00:12:40 - 00:12:48]
Yeah. I mean, thought it was working. Working, you know, working 15 hour days, you know, that was part of that. It ended up being a problem. Right?[00:12:48 - 00:12:49]
Yeah. That busyness.[00:12:49 - 00:13:00]
I was doing so much. I wasn't. I. I had quit exercising, I had quit whatever spiritual work I was doing at that time of my life to be grounded because I was so busy. Right.[00:13:01 - 00:13:05]
Could you see it, Janie? You said he thought he was. Does that mean you.[00:13:05 - 00:13:34]
He's always been a high worrier and he. I think he comes by that genetically, you know, for sure. Or at his. At least. At least was taught that. Or genetically. I'm not sure how it passes down, but when it first manifested. I get a call one afternoon and he was on his way to the E saying he thought he was having a heart attack. So I raced to the er, and the minute he gets to the er, he's finally. He's totally calm, he's totally cutting up and laughing with the nurses. And I was like, okay, I don't think you're having a heart attack.[00:13:35 - 00:13:38]
I think we had an experience like that, didn't we?[00:13:39 - 00:13:39]
Or two.[00:13:40 - 00:13:43]
Or two. This is hard to hear, but go ahead, honey.[00:13:43 - 00:13:50]
It happened again probably another a month later, and. And I kept saying, mark, you have anxiety.[00:13:50 - 00:13:50]
No.[00:13:50 - 00:13:50]
No, I don't.[00:13:50 - 00:13:51]
No, I don't.[00:13:51 - 00:14:00]
He didn't at the time. I mean, he didn't want to be diagnosed and I don't want to speak for you, but he didn't want to be diagnosed with something that he thought was a mental illness, which is. Now we know that it's not a mental illness.[00:14:00 - 00:14:24]
We always tell people anxiety and depression, those are mood disorders. So many people are afraid to be diagnosed because in their mind it's next to schizophrenia or something. And it's not. It's a slight mood disorder that we could. There's so much that we can do treatment wise, even without medicine. But in my mind, oh, man. To have that next to my name, I can't. I don't. I didn't want to deal with that. Yeah.[00:14:24 - 00:14:25]
Stigma.[00:14:25 - 00:14:25]
Yeah.[00:14:25 - 00:14:26]
Yeah.[00:14:26 - 00:15:08]
So one night we had stopped by his office on a after date on a Friday night. We were there about 10 o' clock and he was trying to do some things on the computer and he had a stack of books sitting there in his waiting room. And I was just looking through. The top book was an anxiety book. And I opened the page and there it was. And I was. That I was reading it. I was like, you have every one of these. You have anxiety. And we had some really hard come to Jesus meetings, as we call it. You know, it's some very intense, like, you've got to accept this. And. Yeah, and it took a while, but once he accepted it, then you can't acknowledge it. You can't address it. Right. And so finally he, you know, we said, let's get on this. And I think it was scary. It was scary for him to admit.[00:15:09 - 00:15:25]
And then it was good. I mean, literally within a couple months, I fell back to normal, back to my normal self. And we had to change the lifestyle things. Right. I was working 45 hours a week as a therapist at that point, you know, every Saturday. I mean, it was just crazy. And so we had to make some changes. And.[00:15:26 - 00:15:36]
But I admit I was. That I was that spouse at first, that I was like, buck up, like, what's your problem? Because I've never experienced that. And I couldn't relate. Like, I couldn't understand what he was going through.[00:15:37 - 00:15:50]
She has experienced it since. She's had a couple of her own little small bouts with that. And she's like, I think I'm having a panic attack. And I'm like, I am so grateful. I need to have a good one at least once every 10 years. Empathize a little bit.[00:15:50 - 00:16:12]
Yeah, definitely made me more compassionate, empathetic. But yeah, at first I was just like, calm down. Like, what's your problem? Like that it made no sense to me. And so. But I've learned over the years to try. Now some of our children have it, you know, and trying to now learn to be empathetic, to listen, to be compassionate, to try to understand that what they're going through, they really feel it, like it's a.[00:16:13 - 00:16:14]
They're experiencing it. Yeah.[00:16:14 - 00:16:14]
Yeah.[00:16:15 - 00:17:37]
So. And I. I think, Jenny, you bring up a good point. I think that it's in every marriage because we do not marry ourselves. We marry someone different than ourselves for a reason. And the stories that we tell ourselves, the genetics that we come with, the life circumstances we all have are all different. And so what you're. I mean, what you're proposing, it sounds very, very, very difficult. In theory, on paper, it's this fine balance between giving just enough pushback without going overboard and giving just enough leeway without going overboard. Right. With both your spouse and your children. It's a lifetime we spend trying to. Trying to fine tune this balance right. With each other. And that's really one of the reasons why marriage works so well as an institution. That doesn't work for some people. I get that. But in real. In real time, you're talking about how you had to adjust to. To him to be both compassionate, empathetic, and still have him know that he does need to kind of giddy up.[00:17:37 - 00:17:39]
A little and get help.[00:17:40 - 00:17:44]
Yeah. And to be proactive and vice versa.[00:17:44 - 00:17:45]
Right.[00:17:45 - 00:17:54]
And it's always nice, too, like what Mark was saying that, hey, she's experienced something I had. Now, hey, this is great.[00:17:55 - 00:17:56]
I love it.[00:17:57 - 00:18:00]
To at least have a taste of what it's like.[00:18:01 - 00:18:03]
And I hope empathy, too.[00:18:03 - 00:18:03]
Yeah.[00:18:03 - 00:18:06]
I hope. I hope it was followed by empathy.[00:18:06 - 00:18:11]
Yeah. Go. Hey, honey, I know exactly what to do. Okay. Here's what you got to do. And.[00:18:11 - 00:18:11]
Yeah.[00:18:11 - 00:18:13]
And it was helpful, I think, to her. So.[00:18:14 - 00:18:24]
And I think we just bump into each other over the course of years. We're just bumping, bumping, bumping. And through that, bumping, it. It's like the. The river rolling.[00:18:24 - 00:18:24]
Right.[00:18:24 - 00:18:40]
It just smooths out those edges of knowing how to fine tune our responses to our spouse and. And live in a state of both empathy and proactivity. Strength. It's hard. It's not easy.[00:18:40 - 00:19:16]
Yeah. And that's one thing about having a good, healthy marriage is there's times when I'm really low and he's my cheerleader. There's times when he's really low. I have to be his rock and his cheerleader. And I think. I think that's part of why marriage is so great. You have someone to go through this crazy life with, but it's not easy. It's hard and to learn. I mean, there's many times where I have flubbed. I've been like, get, come on, get up, buck up. Where he needed empathy and compassion. And I should have taken the other approach. But you learn. You learn and you grow and you. Yeah, like you said, rubbing off those rough edges. It's a whole learning experience.[00:19:16 - 00:19:26]
What happened when you just. When you found out that you were too hard on Em? How did that play out? How did you learn that you were too rough on Em or if you remember. I don't know.[00:19:26 - 00:19:27]
I think I just told you.[00:19:27 - 00:19:29]
I think he'll tell me with our children, too.[00:19:29 - 00:19:32]
I've even said, honey, that's not what I need right now.[00:19:32 - 00:19:32]
Yeah.[00:19:32 - 00:19:35]
That's very amazing. Being able to speak what our needs are.[00:19:36 - 00:19:44]
Yeah. Next time, then I'll try to approach the soft. But then sometimes I've just known I've had To say, like, buck up. Like, stop. Stop. Like, stop. Worried about that. We can't go there.[00:19:44 - 00:19:44]
And.[00:19:45 - 00:19:49]
And he usually. So a lot of times he'll just like, okay, okay, like, let's go.[00:19:49 - 00:19:49]
I don't know.[00:19:49 - 00:19:52]
It's. It's a learning. It's a balancing job again.[00:19:52 - 00:20:36]
The good news is that's. That's been 10 years ago. I mean, it's been. It's been so much better now, you know? But I love the idea. This is maybe something we need to identify right here in the conversation is that these. The type of things that can destroy a relationship. Right. This is where we reread the research. You know, the couples have the disabled child or they have the cancer, or the house burns down. And the couples go like this. They separate and they go different directions. And these are the opportunities really to draw actually closer to each other, to really learn about each other in depth and, you know, talk about the ying and the yang of marriage. This is it right here where when one is weak, the other is strong and vice versa. And we hate. Help each other through. That's what it's all about.[00:20:37 - 00:20:48]
And when you're both weak, in some of the cases that you've talked about, which some of those we've experienced as well, you still turn to each other because you're better together than you are alone.[00:20:49 - 00:21:04]
And sometimes you don't turn to each other for a little while. Yeah, I found that that's actually. That that's. That's normal. And just the other day, remember, I said, I gotta take a break.[00:21:05 - 00:21:16]
Yeah, Scott, I can relate to that. Mark's a very. If we fight, he's immediately. Right there. I'm so, you know, where I'm like, give. Give me a few hours. I. I've got to get through my anger that I can come back.[00:21:16 - 00:21:20]
But, yeah, John Gottman's 20 minutes doesn't do it.[00:21:20 - 00:21:20]
Yeah.[00:21:20 - 00:21:26]
We're all like, oh, wait, I gotta go to my counseling office and tell people how to have happy marriages. I got to solve this problem right now.[00:21:27 - 00:21:32]
And I'm like, not ready. I. You know, and so we're just all so different again. That's part of that whole learning curve.[00:21:32 - 00:22:00]
Yeah. But it's funny, though. I came back a few minutes later. I. I played a. A calming song and took some big breaths and, you know, came back and we. We did awesome. We rocked it. And, you know, that is such a beautiful story, because in the moment, it doesn't feel beautiful, right? Yeah, it doesn't feel beautiful. It feels really Hard, and it feels rough and jagged.[00:22:00 - 00:22:01]
Yeah.[00:22:02 - 00:22:07]
You write about anxiety as a superpower. Can you tell us just a little bit about that?[00:22:08 - 00:23:57]
Yeah, no, this is great. I. I had a young man that grew up in our area in McKinney, Texas, that ended up teaching him at the university where I teach at. And one day he approached me. He had had his own struggle with anxiety, and I'd actually been his therapist for a while. And he said, I had this great idea. We keep talking about anxiety as this great weakness, but to me, it's a strength. And he was giving examples. He's like, you ever notice that anxious people are the ones who get things done? Or that anxious people are sensitive to others? They actually recognize the guy whose car is pulled over on the side of the road, you know, or that anxious people are prepared because they're always thinking of what could go wrong, you know? And we started making this list and came up with about 10 or 12 things where, oh, wow, anxiety really is. I mean, I know for me, it's been a great help in a lot of ways. It's helped me to be more sensitive to other people with challenges where I just didn't think that way. I was more like her thinking, well, buck up, let's get going. So it's kind of identifying where these weak spots can. Can become strengths with. With any kind of mental health challenge, you know, And. And for me, yeah, I recognize, wow. In my own life, I think I've been able to accomplish so much because I have lived under a lot of stress, you know, or I have been extra sensitive to people because I've thought about that a lot. Wow. What they must be going through is horrible. I need to give them a call or whatever, you know, and you tend to just think in different ways when you're. When you're anxious. And so now let's accept what some of these weaknesses are, but also recognize, wow, this is a strength. Why am I fighting against this? And feeling like it's such a stigma when in reality, it's made me who I am, and it's helped me become a better person in a lot of ways.[00:23:58 - 00:24:41]
So it sounds to me like, Mark, you're teaching that we need to look at our lives, look at who we are in real time, not better, not worse, just reality as it stands. And that includes anxiety. As, you know, it's a label. Right. But it doesn't mean anything other than it's what it is. And to acknowledge, okay, there are some. Maybe some negatives here, but some positives, too. Because yeah, you brought up some points too, that, that those are very interesting and positive points that I think people who have anxiety, whether it's genetic or environmental, to look at that and say.[00:24:41 - 00:24:45]
Yeah, yeah, what are some of the strengths that come from this?[00:24:45 - 00:24:46]
Yeah.[00:24:46 - 00:25:22]
Over the years, as I've watched him, at first he was having panic, you know, ending up in the er, having panic attacks on an airplane, things like that, as I've watched him over the years, conquer them, you know, get the help. That's, that's the, that's the great thing about anxiety is that you can master it, you can get on top of it. Doesn't mean it's not not there and you won't flare up, but you can learn their techniques, there's ways to overcome it. He's now used that to bless other people's lives on how to help them. He's used it. I mean, it's amazing to me to watch him now be a rock and, you know, and help other people and have totally conquered it in his life. And to me that's amazing.[00:25:23 - 00:25:44]
Yeah, I think that's really how life works is if we can take the really hard things that we've gone through on an individual or on a couple levels and use those to, well, first figure them out and then use those to help other people in ways that they, they wouldn't have. That information otherwise is, really gives so much meaning to life.[00:25:44 - 00:25:46]
Yeah. And then you have a podcast.[00:25:46 - 00:26:15]
Right. Well, that's like the next step. So my first marriage ended in divorce. And it was interesting when I taught a college level class on how to have good marriages, how to prepare for marriages, healthy marital relationships for them to have that perspective of. Look, here are some things that made it so it didn't work. And we bring things like that into our podcast sometimes as well. We, we tried to do things very differently in our marriage.[00:26:16 - 00:26:17]
Sure, you bet.[00:26:18 - 00:26:22]
That's one of our four cornerstones, intentionality.[00:26:22 - 00:26:24]
Been a big thing that we've talked about here today.[00:26:24 - 00:26:25]
About that today. Yep.[00:26:26 - 00:26:26]
Oh, that's great.[00:26:27 - 00:26:34]
Well, is there any wisdom that you would leave with us as we're coming to the close of this episode?[00:26:34 - 00:27:35]
Yeah, thanks for the question. I just think that everyone's going to have challenges in their life. There's no one's going to get out of this life without significant trials and obstacles to go through. But to have someone that you can go through those together, to become a team, to forge this great identity and to let those difficult things that happen in a marriage actually make it better and stronger and closer and then better for other people. You know, I love what you guys said. I've always believed that when we have significant problems in our life, if we can learn from those and start mastering those problems now we're in a position to help others. And like Janie said, it's been amazing how many people, even in our own family, we even have some grandchildren now that struggle with anxiety that we know how to help them. I just love the idea that we get strong and then we can reach out and help those around us. And to have a marriage that's built on significant challenge and trial is a super strong, super strong marriage.[00:27:36 - 00:27:54]
We just told one of our kids and their spouse that last night, didn't we? Through a lot of significant trials. And we just said, this is a superpower. This is really good because it will prepare you much better than those couples who are just sailing along and not having any bumps in the road.[00:27:54 - 00:28:05]
Yeah, we're grateful for those things that have happened in our lives, you know, that we had to make it our own way, like so many have, and, and scrap and save and build those.[00:28:05 - 00:28:07]
Muscles and you come out tougher and stronger.[00:28:07 - 00:28:08]
Yeah.[00:28:08 - 00:28:11]
Yeah. How about you, Janie? Any last words of wisdom?[00:28:12 - 00:28:45]
I just echo everything that you guys have said. I, um, just think back over the years, the, the hardships, the trials, the things that we've gone through. Yeah. You can draw closer to each other or you can turn away and luckily we've had moments where. But we come back and you work through it and you move on stronger and better than ever. And I think you have to fight for that every day. I don't think that's a one time thing. I think it's a daily. You have to prioritize it. You have to make it, you know, be intentional.[00:28:45 - 00:28:48]
Intentionality. Our word of the day.[00:28:48 - 00:28:49]
That's right.[00:28:49 - 00:28:59]
Good. If our listeners are interested in learning more about what you two do or your podcast or your books or anything like that, where might they find you?[00:29:00 - 00:29:18]
Yeah. So Preserving Families podcast is on pretty much all the itunes, Spotify, even on YouTube now and then. PreservingFamilies.org is the website. So great. There's a lot of resources there and certainly, certainly happy to help anyone in any way we can.[00:29:18 - 00:29:20]
So that's great.[00:29:20 - 00:29:25]
That's wonderful. This has been really amazing and we're so grateful to have the two of you on today.[00:29:25 - 00:29:26]
Thank you so much for joining us.[00:29:26 - 00:29:28]
Thanks for. Thanks for having us.[00:29:28 - 00:29:30]
Thank you both. We've learned a lot from you.[00:29:32 - 00:29:36]
So, everybody, that's a wrap for this episode of Marriage iq.[00:29:36 - 00:29:43]
And remember that the intelligent spouse knows a scintillating marriage starts with first changing themselves.[00:29:44 - 00:29:50]
If you want to know more, join Marriage IQ on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.[00:29:50 - 00:30:11]
And grab your free ebook. Sign up for exclusive tips@marriageiq.com and please, please, please take a moment to rate subscribe. Follow Marriage IQ wherever you listen or watch. That would really, we'd love that. Email us@hellorriageiq.com and we will answer you.[00:30:12 - 00:30:26]
And we would love to hear suggestions that you have for future episodes as well. Invite your friends and family to join the Marriage IQ community too. So everybody, we'll see you next time on another exciting episode of Marriage iQ.
