Episode 78. Reclaiming Desire (Part 2): Consent, Curiosity, and Connection
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Build a Marriage That Feels Safe
If you want a marriage that thrives—not just survives—emotional safety is non-negotiable. It’s the foundation that allows couples to communicate openly, resolve conflict well, and experience deeper intimacy. Without it, even strong relationships can drift into misunderstanding and disconnection.
At Marriage IQ, we study what makes marriages work, and recently, we sat down with Amanda Louder, a certified relationship coach who specializes in helping couples navigate intimacy and connection. Her insights about emotional safety and intimacy shed light on why creating a secure emotional environment matters—and how to build it intentionally.
What Emotional Safety Really Means
Emotional safety is the confidence that you can bring your full, authentic self into your marriage without fear of judgment, criticism, or rejection.
When emotional safety is present, couples:
Share more openly and vulnerably
Handle conflict with greater empathy
Deepen intimacy—both emotional and physical
When it’s missing, walls go up, conversations shut down, and intimacy suffers. Building safety isn’t about perfection; it’s about creating an environment where both partners feel seen, valued, and supported.
The Role of Curiosity
Amanda calls curiosity one of the “unsung heroes of a scintillating marriage.” When you stay curious about your partner’s thoughts, feelings, and inner world, you create space for connection.
Here’s how to practice curiosity:
Ask open-ended questions without assuming you know the answers
Listen attentively to understand, not just to reply
Seek your partner’s perspective—even when it differs from yours
Curiosity builds insight into your partner’s experience, and insight creates the foundation for intimacy.
Emotional Safety and Intimacy
Feeling safe emotionally directly impacts how we experience physical intimacy. When couples feel secure with each other, conversations about consent, desire, and boundaries become less charged and more collaborative.
Amanda recommends using gentle, curiosity-based language to navigate intimacy:
“I’m just curious… are you feeling turned on right now?”
This approach removes pressure and fosters openness, allowing both partners to express where they are without fear of rejection.
Respecting Boundaries
Emotional safety thrives when both partners respect each other’s verbal and non-verbal cues. Remember, consent isn’t a one-time agreement—it’s an ongoing dialogue. When one partner pauses, hesitates, or says no, honoring that builds trust and security.
Overcoming Sexual Inhibitions
Many individuals—especially women from conservative backgrounds—struggle with sexual inhibitions that affect intimacy. Amanda encourages normalizing these challenges rather than shaming them.
She suggests reflecting on this key question:
“If this belief or behavior is creating more connection, intimacy, and closeness, keep it. If it isn’t, it might be time to change it.”
Creating emotional safety means giving yourself and your spouse permission to explore new ways of connecting, without judgment or fear.
The Ripple Effect of Change
One of Amanda’s most powerful insights was this:
“When we show up differently in the relationship, it changes the system. It forces the relationship to change.”
When you take responsibility for your own growth—by practicing new communication skills, setting healthy boundaries, or showing up with more curiosity—the entire relationship begins to shift.
But change can also create resistance. Your partner may struggle to adjust, even if they wanted things to improve. Patience, grace, and consistency are essential during these transition periods.
Collaboration, Not Compromise
Amanda challenges couples to move beyond the traditional idea of compromise:
“Compromise is a lose-lose. I like collaboration, which is a win-win.”
Collaboration means working together to find creative solutions that honor both partners’ needs.
Try this approach:
Brainstorm possibilities without judgment
Focus on what’s best for the relationship, not just individual “wins”
Think outside the box until you discover a third way—one that meets both of your core needs
Collaboration strengthens intentionality in marriage because you’re both choosing the relationship above ego or scorekeeping.
Building a Marriage That Feels Safe
Creating emotional safety isn’t a one-time event—it’s an ongoing process. It takes intention, insight, and a willingness to challenge old patterns. When both partners commit to showing up differently, the relationship transforms.
As Amanda reminded us:
“Desire doesn’t just happen. It’s created.”
The same is true for emotional safety. By nurturing trust, practicing curiosity, and communicating openly, you lay the groundwork for a marriage where both partners feel deeply connected and truly free to be themselves.
Small steps create big change over time. When safety grows, so does intimacy.
What about you?
Which strategy will you try this week to create more emotional safety in your marriage?
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0:02
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse.
I'm Doctor Heidi Hastings.
And I'm Doctor Scott Hastings.
We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose to transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun.
0:34
Welcome back Part 2 of our powerful conversation with Amanda Louder on Marriage IQ.
If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, we encourage you to start there.
We've covered foundational truths about sexual health agency and the impact of cultural and religious messaging.
0:51
In this episode, we move into the how you'll hear practical ways to express your desires.
Build safety and create sexual intimacy that feels mutual, empowering, and aligned with your values.
Let's dive back in with Amanda.
So I want to get back to because I love the entice me thing.
1:09
Now, just when you're with these women, you're doing the role play because getting back to your consent, if the husband's trying really hard to entice his wife there, there has to come a moment where she's either going to say yes or no.
1:26
And sometimes that moment is really squishy if she's kind of warming up.
Do you teach them about when that moment is or how do they move for cause?
Again, consent is is cool.
1:42
Consent is cool.
We want consent.
How does that move from no to maybe to yes?
At what moment or what actions or how do you handle that?
So I think it really is a matter of having that awareness with yourself of where you can see it, the shift, because there's a point where you're like, this is not happening or there's a point where like, Oh yeah, this is working, right?
2:06
And it's leaning into whatever those are when it happens for you.
So a lot of times, you know, they'll know.
And then we talk about how to be honest, but kind like, this isn't working for me.
I'm so sorry.
Let can we do this or can we stop or whatever?
2:25
Again, paying attention to what is important to them and how to stay in connection.
What feels good and right for them matters either way for yes or no.
OK, So what I hear you saying is that the wife's body will kind of lead her.
2:43
How she's reacting, how she's moving into it mentally, that's going to really help her decide that's either a go or no.
Right.
Well, and he gets to have a choice here too, right?
Like, I mean, if he can tell her body's not responding or it is responding, like he can actually be more forthcoming.
3:02
Like I can tell you're just not feeling it, you know?
And she can respond to that.
Or he can say like if it's feels like you're starting to get aroused or like this is moving.
Is that right?
Like really confirming what he's noticing and letting her respond either way is fine as long as it's done with just openness and curiosity and of course, love.
3:25
I think curiosity is one of the unsung heroes of a scintillating marriage.
We don't talk about curiosity enough.
No, we don't.
We seriously.
Being curious and the whole definition behind curious is I really want to know.
It's not these preconceived notions of what I think you know, which happens a ton.
3:45
Yes, I know my wife.
No be being curious.
Hey, how are you feeling right now?
I sense you might be getting turned on.
Is this true?
Right, and and using those words, are you I'm just curious allow or for her to not feel attacked or controlled or, you know, fill in the blank.
4:07
That's a negative emotion.
It just curiosity really gives her the ability to state what's going on with herself.
Well, and be curious with herself too, right?
Like he might be recognizing signs that she's not quite recognizing in herself yet.
4:24
And so then she gets to turn that curiosity inward and be curious with herself and figure out what's going on.
And to not force it right, the husband doesn't force the thought on his wife.
Totally curious.
4:39
Innocence, point of view, never controlling that.
That can turn bad really quickly.
Some of the women that I speak to have a significant number of sexual inhibitions, and I think part of the way to educate women is to let them know that that's normal.
5:06
How do you work with women to first of all normalize that, that that's natural, That doesn't make them bad or broken or wrong or anything, but then also how to turn that around?
Yeah.
So I talk a lot about what results they get from that.
5:25
So from their response from.
From whatever they're thinking, they're believing what they're feeling.
You know, how they're acting.
What results does that create in life?
Does that create more connection, more intimacy, a better relationship with self or spouse?
5:41
If it does, keep with it.
If it doesn't, you might want to change things.
Now, I don't ever force them or tell them they have to.
It's all about like, you can choose to change this if you want to.
In terms of again, because I speak to mostly a religious audience, right?
5:58
I say by their fruits he shall know them.
Like if the fruit is good, then it's probably a good thing.
If it's not good, then it's not a good thing.
So that's what we always want to look at is the results that it's creating in your life and in your relationship.
And if it's not creating the results you want, then it's probably time to change things.
6:17
That's great.
Is there language surrounding that that you do some role-playing with them to to teach them language?
Well, so I teach a model that they use based in cognitive behaviour therapy.
So we have our circumstances and then we have thoughts about those circumstances.
6:36
And the thoughts create feelings and the feelings drive our actions and the actions create our results.
And so we're always using those terms, circumstance, thought, feeling, action, result, so they can see where it fits whatever's going on in their model.
6:51
And then we can play around with their model and create different results for them.
And so having that language that's very common that they can use and think through things themselves is always helpful.
So when you'd go through these scenarios with these, I guess it sounds mainly like women, right?
7:09
Do you ever do it with men?
Or mainly women?
Yes.
So I coached just women for many, many years and then a few years ago I decided to start coaching couples and I love coaching couples.
I just think you can make so much progress when you have both people working on it together.
7:26
And then I also last year started coaching men on their own as well.
And so I would prefer couples just because I think that's where the most progress is made.
But I coach individuals as well, and I've definitely coached way more women than men.
Do they report back to you?
Do they say, hey, this, this went well?
7:43
Is this is?
How well is that received, generally speaking?
It's, it's received really well sometimes.
I mean, most of the time it's creating better results in their life, right?
That's what that's what we're looking for.
Like is coaching working for you?
Is it creating better results or not?
7:59
As long as they're actually doing the work, it always creates better results.
Always.
Sometimes there's some pushback.
Sometimes.
I mean, marriage is a system, right?
It is Co created by two people and so a lot of times, you know, when we show up differently, when we change how we are behaving, then it's going to change the system and it's going to force the marriage to change.
8:23
Wait.
Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I need you to repeat what you just said a little bit slower.
When we show up differently in the relationship, it changes the system.
It forces the relationship to change.
8:39
We cannot keep doing.
All right, right.
Yep, we can't keep doing the same dance we've been doing when one partner is doing different steps.
So yeah, we teach here that really responsible marital partner changes themselves first.
8:58
They have to take that responsibility themselves.
We're not the victim, we're not the one who is Pristine Angel while our partner has all of the issues.
We're not talking about obvious problems, abuse, things like that, but most relationships don't have this, at least in our culture.
9:23
So we're we're back to let's look at ourselves.
So anyway, I'm sorry I slowed you down, but that's a huge point to make that we're that we love to other people to support what we're saying.
Yes.
Yes.
So when you change yourself, right, then it changes the system and it forces the marriage to change.
9:42
Now, sometimes even if the partner who didn't make the changes wanted the other person to make changes, right, they actually don't like how the system has changed it.
And so I think it's maybe Harriet Lerner that talks about the change back, where like the other partner tries to force them to change back because that's what's comfortable, right?
10:04
Even though if they didn't like it, it's still more comfortable than the unknown.
And so they try to force the change back.
But if you can continually show up differently and with integrity and bringing more truth and honesty to the relationship, it's going to actually change it for the better.
10:21
And if it doesn't, you're.
Going to like yourself.
Better.
Right.
Absolutely.
I mean, you can move on or you can choose to stay.
Absolutely.
It's a win, win.
It's.
Exactly what happened to me.
So I made changes in myself that were in alignment with my integrity, that I felt good about myself.
10:43
And there were still problems in the marriage and he was not willing to address his part.
And so I outgrew the marriage.
So I think this is interesting because Heidi is also, this is her second marriage.
And it's very interesting the perspective that you bring into a new marriage, both good and bad, because there's there's always, always some baggage.
11:10
That you bring.
And we're, yeah, we're working through those.
We didn't access.
It for a lot.
We didn't realize it for years, but oh.
It's kind of it's kind.
Of a recent thing.
I'm like, holy cow, this is baggage from the first marriage.
Once you know it, once you can see it, you can recognize it, you can at least start working on it, you know?
11:32
And So what you're trying to do, what we're trying to do with people is to bring them.
So now at least they know there's an issue because they can properly identify, recognize it.
I think that was your first one, right?
The awareness.
Awareness.
Yes, bring it to their awareness, because even if you did nothing else, you're now aware of what something you weren't aware of before.
11:57
And that gives you something to work on, right?
Well, studies show that even just an awareness of the issue is going to start to change the issue.
That's exactly right.
That's true.
That's what I found.
We found as well.
And I've found that it starts with realizing when you're failing, when you're not doing things the way that you're wanting to it.
12:19
And it's like, oh, I see now, but I didn't see before.
And you do that long enough, and then you start being able to grasp onto that change.
Yeah.
And you know, so many times you can start to see things, right?
Like, I can see that when I'm doing this, this isn't working.
12:34
When this is happening, it's because I did this, right?
But I mean, that's one of the best reasons to hire a coach or a therapist or something is to help you see the things that you're not seeing in yourself that are causing you problems.
Good point, very good point.
So what other like high level things do you teach your couples as far as being able to enhance intimacy, Enhanced, I guess their sexual intimacy?
13:01
I mean, so much is communication, just learning how to do conflict well, the conflict isn't a problem.
That's a big one.
So many people want to avoid conflict altogether because they think conflict is bad.
13:16
But conflict is actually what creates intimacy.
Oh, wait a minute.
Oh, man, I thought that if you just swept things under the rug, no harm, no foul.
Everything's good, right?
And you just have a lumpy rug that you're tripping over all the time, I mean.
13:34
It seems to work for a lot of people if I just sweep it under the rug.
I don't talk to my husband because I'm too nervous.
Well, that comes a lot with emotional cut off, right.
I'm I'm putting up a wall or what is what's stonewalling?
Stonewalling.
Yeah, yes.
But a lot of us do this.
13:51
I probably even, I, I know I do it too, even though I'm trying to shine a light on it more.
But I think all of us do it to some degree because it's just psychologically safer.
But you're, you're telling people to undress psychologically in front of each other before they undress physically.
14:12
And that's really hard to do that commutative style.
Are are there any big tools that you use that are helpful for people?
Always Gottman's 4 horsemen.
14:28
I mean, those are the big obstacles usually to healthy communication and healthy conflict.
And so identifying what horsemen they employ typically, I mean usually most people employ all of them at some point, but what they typically do and how to combat that and do things differently.
14:50
So for those people who don't know the Four Horsemen, can you review them?
Yes, it is defensiveness, stonewalling, contempt and criticism.
So making sure we understand what those are and how to combat them.
15:06
Knowing what the bad parts are of communication, I think, yeah, it's helpful to know how what to stay away from.
Well, and I love what you were saying about conflict too.
We've started to see that as a superpower because it just means we have two different ideas, two different perspectives.
And when you marry those, when you bring those together, you have a much broader understanding.
15:27
You are able to navigate things with higher intelligence.
And this is your opinion, This is my opinion.
Do we meld those into one, or are we more comfortable with just having two different opinions?
Yeah, I think there's a few things there that you said.
15:42
So in crucial conversations, they talk about having a shared pool of meaning.
So the more information you can put into that shared pool of meaning, the better, right.
A lot of times we were told that we need to be on the same page about everything in marriage.
15:59
I don't believe that either.
I think that gets us into a lot of problems that don't need to be there.
It's.
Probably good to be on the same page for a majority of things, but not everything, right?
Gottman says 69% of conflict is unresolvable.
That's true.
16:14
Well, here's the thing.
I've read that I've seen that.
Oh, I don't know if that's necessarily true all the time, but it's a, it's a good chunk of them.
Yeah.
Schnarge talks about the being the strong, flexible self being, you know, independent but also interdependent.
16:32
And so that does require some shared goals, values, things like that, absolutely in addition to your own individual values and goals.
So I I think that is part of marriage is, is showing up and being part of that marriage and not just being one independent person.
16:52
Yeah.
Well, I think one of the things that you're speaking to is collaboration.
So, you know, again, one of the things that we've been told is that in marriage you should compromise, and I don't like that.
I don't like that word either.
Compromise is a lose lose.
I like collaboration, which is a win win, meaning that you know what my wants, desires are just as important as your wants and desires.
17:16
And so it's not my way, it's not necessarily your way, but it's finding often a third way that we can both get what we want.
I think that's really what a good marriage does.
Absolutely.
And maybe at one point of life or one week or one day, it's going to be targeted a little more towards one partner and then shift.
17:39
I know when I was in grad school, he had to change a lot of what he did to help collaborate with me.
But then I'd done the same thing for him in another point of life.
But you could accuse me of just buttering you up.
I mean, that could happen.
17:55
The wife could say, well, he's just trying to butter me up.
So I, I think maybe perhaps that could be true.
I may be just trying to butter you up.
I think that if we have more opportunities, more touch points in our marriage where we sit down and we have these pow wows and.
18:12
Where we feel.
And we talk to each other.
We feel it's like, am am I buttering you?
Yeah, maybe.
But is that OK?
Yeah, maybe.
OK.
Then as long as you're not resentful, that's the thing.
Like if you can, if you want to move, you know, more into that accommodative stance, maybe it's not as important to you or you realize that it's a season of life and things will change.
18:35
I think that's OK when it's based in agency and an integrity based position.
I love that, right?
But if you're just in that accommodative stance where like your partner's wants and needs and desires are always more important than yours, eventually you're going to grow resentful and that is going to cause more problems down the road.
18:52
Yeah.
So this is huge, another huge point you just made, the importance of knowing who you are to the point where you are out of your own free will and choice, saying, OK, I'm willing to change this boundary that I put up.
19:11
I'm going to move that fence a little bit.
This is what I want to do.
I've not been coerced.
My husband has been nagging at me.
This is what I want to do out of my own free will and choice because I've thought about it and I know who I am.
19:27
That is where that magic happens when we're moving those boundaries.
And it goes for both of us, right, husband and wife, which is getting back to like the whole importance of knowing that part of your identity and saying, yeah, I'm going to shift this.
19:43
Yeah, that's where.
Free will and choice not taken from me and.
Whenever I make a choice to do something for somebody else, if I inspect what is my motivation, is my vote motivation that I'm using my agency for this, then we will actually be energized.
20:01
In my experience, if we are not using our agency and we're doing something out of duty or just being compelled, then we have burnout and resentment.
Like you said, agency so important.
20:17
Having said all that, I think that there is the opportunity to be taken advantage of on both sides, right?
And so that's where that self-awareness, vigilance, right, emotional intelligence, when that is starting to happen.
I think generally speaking from a man's point of view, from my point of view anyway, it's better for me to try to take my wife's perspective as much as possible.
20:48
The risk of her taking advantage of me is much smaller than the benefits.
The potential benefits I gain from having a wife who feels that I really do support her out of my own free will and choice.
21:07
Yeah.
So every decision is it's a risk, right?
How they might take advantage of me I might go too far, but in my experience that risk is worth it, at least for me.
But it sounds like you've created an atmosphere in your marriage that has emotional safety.
21:27
And not all marriages.
Have that but, and not all marriages have that, but when you do like, that's when you're able to create a more intimate marriage is because you have that emotional safety there where you know that your spouse is doing their best and not trying to take advantage.
Yeah, you're right.
21:43
I would say for those marriages that may not have that emotional safety, I would still take a chance on it.
I would still take that chance and say, OK, what my spouse want, what you want from me, I want to do for you what no matter how good or bad the marriage is.
22:05
I think that's a great start because it really does start with intentionality.
Well, identity really, but then intentionality is.
There anything specific that you do with couples when they don't feel emotionally safe or secure?
22:21
We, we role play a lot about how to have conversations that are more emotionally safe.
And it takes practice a lot.
It takes being willing to step into that space where has it has not felt safe in the past to try and do something differently and start doing things better.
22:40
And that's really hard for a lot of couples, but we've had a lot of success that way, too.
Though, so is that hard to do when you're counseling couples right there in the same room?
No, most of the time they're pretty aware of their patterns.
And you know, again, we always look at, OK, this is what's creating a lack of emotional safety in the relationship.
23:00
And here's how each of them are contributing to that because it's usually not just one of them.
And so then we get to self confront and, you know, look at our part in it individually and how we want to show up differently.
And then we get to we do a lot of role-playing and practicing.
23:17
I mean, a lot of times when I'm doing sessions with couples, I will have them actually have a conversation that they have not been able to have in the past in front of me.
And I'm kind of there Sierno de Bergerac that like whisper in their ear, but then let them repeat it in their own words.
23:33
So really, it sounds to me like, Amanda, you are a language teacher.
In many ways I am, yes.
You're not a relationship coach, you are a language teacher.
You're as a Spanish teacher.
Often they are definitely speaking different languages.
23:51
Yeah, they're learning a new language that's.
That's helping them learn anyone.
Yeah.
This has been wonderful.
It has, and really impressed that you were able to turn something that was once a weakness into a real strength.
And we promote that so much.
24:06
We want everyone who's struggling with something to know this might just be the path to a new part of you.
Yeah, that's great.
And if our listeners want to find you, learn more about what you do.
Check into your coaching.
24:21
Where would they find you?
So my website is just my name, amandalouder.com, and on there you can find all of my coaching programs.
I do retreats for women and couples.
I have my podcast on there and then my Instagram is Christian Sex Coach.
Great.
OK, so amandalouder.com before they go.
24:39
Well, thank you.
This has been really great.
Nice to finally meet you face to face, so to speak.
Yes, thank you so much.
We look.
Forward to watching what you do with your practice and with your business, and continue helping people learn that language of sexuality.
24:55
And for our listeners who want to learn more on this, you can e-mail us at hello@marriageiq.com.
You can also follow us on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and I think we're on TikTok now.
Facebook and Instagram.
Facebook and Instagram, yes, and let us know what you think.
25:14
If you want to reach out and learn more, we can direct you toward Amanda, but we are grateful that you're here today.
Remember, the intelligence spouse knows that to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in themselves.
And that's wrap everybody, and we look forward to seeing you on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
