Episode 10. Who Wears the Power in Your Relationship - Part 2
This week's Marriage IQ podcast episode tackles how to create balanced power dynamics within your relationship. We hope you will love our candid chat. We model vulnerability by getting real about our own marriage, even when it got messy navigating Heidi's shifting sense of self and authority. Our story shows that discovering your voice and reclaiming your power starts from within. We share research-backed ideas about moving from "power over" to "power with." This involves embracing shared decision-making, mutual influence, attunement, and vulnerability. We all hold assumptions about power - this episode will get you reflecting on yours.
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Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse. I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings. And I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings. We are two doctors, two researchers, two spouses, two lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones, using intelligence mixed with a little fun.00:01:23
We talked in a previous episode about how when a woman sees her husband doing household chores, it's like a natural aphrodisiac, right? Is that the one on intimacy? That's one of them, but it does help fuel that a little bit, and so that's a nice bonus. Another area that we can be more balanced with power is to have mutual attunement, intentionally help your partner feel felt. Interestingly, oxytocin that we talked about in episode seven is released when we intentionally and empathetically connect with each other.00:02:02
However, research is showing that when there's a power imbalance, the more powerful partner is less likely to be willing to give up their interests to connect with or attune to their lower power partner, which is the woman. And she often is more likely to need those oxytocin bursts. So maybe it sounds like we need to just start injecting oxytocin into men, right? That'll fix the problem right there. Someday.00:02:35
Someday. How interested is each partner in knowing and understanding the other's experience and perspective? Who listens to the other? And to what extent does each partner notice each other's feelings and needs? This could look like both partners being unhappy in the marriage, and they try to bring it up to each other, but nothing ever changes, right?00:02:59
It just stays the same. Same song, different verse, over and over. Conversely, Doctor John Gottman says that those who are masters of relationships, the couples who are masters of relationships, are more likely to approach their problems as a team and work on it together. But really, this starts with identity. In a lot of ways, it starts with knowing yourself.00:03:21
Sounds like a cornerstone to me. It does. Knowing what your own needs are and then being able to verbalize those in peaceful ways, but also be curious and open to knowing what your partner's needs are. That sounds really interesting. Lastly is shared vulnerability.00:03:39
And for this one, the most powerful, the person in the relationship who holds the most power has to be the one to take the lead in moving toward a more vulnerable position. Especially if you have a partner with any kind of a history of abuse or other kinds of traumatic things that have happened in their life, the partner who holds more power must be willing and able to create a safe place for experiencing vulnerability. That might be hard to do. It is, but we are asking people to do a lot of hard things. But tell me why you say that.00:04:19
Well, I think it's hard for men to be vulnerable. Yes, it is. And I don't, quite frankly, know how to fix that other than to share with men that. It begins with you, sir. It begins with you.00:04:36
It really begins with everyone but each can. I think if I had a megaphone to talk to men, we need to talk about vulnerability. Because I think the problem with vulnerability for men is that when you say the word vulnerable, what does that conjure up in your mind? In my mind as a man, that I'm weak, right? That I'm weak.00:05:01
That I'm powerless. That I'm letting these things in that are taking over and that's not vulnerable. But we have to start addressing the other side of what this word means, vulnerability. And there's power behind vulnerability. There is great power.00:05:20
We talked about this in the intimacy episode. There's intentional vulnerability and unintentional vulnerability. And if men can start learning about intentional vulnerability, that means you're intentionally thinking about addressing something that is sensitive to you, with your spouse, with your wife, and being open. Right? For example, how willing are you to admit your weaknesses or talk about your feelings of uncertainty, about a specific topic, or talk to them about mistakes that you've made, right?00:05:58
That's hard. But we have to start relearning as men. We have to learn a new language. And one of these words is vulnerability. And it's not what we think it is.00:06:11
And I might add to that, that if, as women, we can't help men, help our husbands feel safe in vulnerability, then this type of power imbalance is probably not likely to occur. If they take a shot at it, they try to be vulnerable. And we are overreactive, emotionally or emotional lycutoff, or feel very defensive or attacked, or we're scared because they are exposing vulnerabilities. That's gonna make it really tough. Yes.00:06:48
So the women are not off the hook here. Right. Right. If they want their husbands to be vulnerable, they need to be ready to receive it. And that's why it's so important to be, again, intentional about your vulnerability.00:07:02
That means you have a space set aside for the husband, for the wife, and that space is gonna be filled with some discomfort. So being able to sit in discomfort is going to be very important. Right. The wife needs to be able to hear it without overreacting. Right.00:07:20
Because that will just shut down her husband. A couple of other questions. How able are partners to seek relationship repair by expressing their feelings or concerns? Or is that not met? Well, yeah.00:07:35
Is the partner defensive? If the partner is defensive, then they're probably going to just close up. Who is most likely to do this when it happens? And how often do you silence your opinion for self protection or for fear that it won't be acknowledged? Okay.00:07:55
Yeah. Those are great questions. Good measuring sticks to see maybe where you lie with power. So, we're talking about the four things that you. That you found here.00:08:03
The mutual influence, shared relational responsibility, mutual attunement, shared vulnerability, which I think the last one's the most important, in my view. So I want to tell you a little bit about us, a story about us. Now, Heidi was feeling. And you can jump in. Heidi feeling ambivalent about what.00:08:32
What to do with her life after she decided to go to graduate school, after the kids left the house, did her master's degree. That was kind of a stepping stone. It was hard. It was really hard. But I had no idea what a PhD was compared to masters.00:08:52
It's because for three years, you got to do all the dishes, the housework, and the meal planning. Well, I just. I had no idea. Like, the PhD was so much harder. And then you got done, and you were done with that.00:09:07
Like, you were ready to move on. I was done with that. But you were ambivalent, and I was like, let's go. Let's roll, baby. You're done.00:09:19
You got your doctorate. Let's move. And you felt really pressured from me, and I felt just passionate and excited. That's. And my.00:09:30
The story I told myself was I was excited to get rolling and to pump me up, to support me in moving forward as fast as we could. And for you, it was just. I was having an identity crisis, because for five years, I'd done almost nothing. I'd cut myself off from most of my friends and a lot of my social support. And I was here sitting at my desk, doing work 16 hours a day, a lot of days.00:09:57
And so all of the sudden, I had this freedom, but I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do with it. And it was a morning of what felt secure and comfortable. Yeah. Of a previous life. But you also started discovering, though, some newfound power that you hadn't before.00:10:18
Right. And it was a little confusing to you, if I remember right. It still is sometimes. Yeah. Because as it goes, you are the executive producer of this podcast and everything we do on marriage IQ as of probably starting episode six.00:10:35
For a while, I kept giving the power to you to make the decisions because for 20 years, I've supported you in your business and helped you make decisions. Yes. But you ultimately had the last word on things, and it was such a hard transition for me to realize that I need to start making those decisions by myself. Well, with your counsel, for sure, but that I. But you hold the ultimate authority over how this goes.00:11:05
Right. It's a process, and it's really a little bit messy sometimes, trying to figure out that balance of power and to take as a woman, more of my own agency and use it. More of my own power and use it. And also important to do that in peaceful ways, which sometimes it's been really confusing for me because I'm like, there's a power imbalance here. You're doing this, and I'm feeling this, and I didn't do it necessarily in ways that were peaceful or loving and kind.00:11:40
What? You're always loving and kind. What are you talking about? Sometimes I mess up, and I feel like I was doing a lot of apologizing, especially early on when I was trying to figure out who am I? But, you know, it's been.00:11:54
It's been really awesome for me to see that. Almost like a metamorphosis. Little butterfly. That's cool coming out. Yeah, I like it.00:12:07
But it wouldn't happen if you hadn't exercised your agency. Right. And that's what we're trying to tell these other wives and men, too, to exercise what they already have, the power that they already have. And that's really what human development is, is in each stage of, especially adult development, we learn how to use our agency better, to make decisions for ourself based on the information that we have, to use that power to bless other people's lives, not to roll over people, which really, I wanted to share some studies that I've looked at over the last few days. There are several researchers, but a couple of them are Gloria felt, Brene Brown, and Mona Fishbanedhennae.00:13:00
Among many others, who have developed a model on power that really applies to both an individual level and a relationship level. Okay? And it has three parts to it. Tell me. The first is power over someone or some people.00:13:20
And that is a relationship where domination exists, where there can be not all of these necessarily, but where there can be force, where you can deny other people what they want, where you control things, where you coerce people to get your way, where you manipulate, you may suppress, oppress, blame them, or humiliate them. And so by doing any of those, we're taking power over them, exerting power over them. That, in contrast to power with power over, as opposed to power with power with is I'm sharing my power with you. We have shared decision making. We have shared distribution of responsibility.00:14:16
We're collaborative with each other. We're inclusive. I want to bring you into my business. We lead. Instead of forcing or pushing, we do it with empathy and with respect.00:14:30
And when we make mistakes, which we often will, we are very intentional about repairing. Okay, then the third part of this model that I believe feeds out of power with is power to. So power overdose. Power with. Power to power, too.00:14:50
And I love to see this as the power to do good. So I had a philosophy class in my doctoral program where we discussed some of the biggest philosophers ideas about power. And it was always from the power over perspective. But power with really opens up the power to do good, to make our lives better for ourselves, for my marriage, for our family, for my community, and with the world. And we're sharing power in all of those different circles.00:15:27
Wow. This is where we really have become self differentiated, meaning we can be autonomous and intimate both in the same relationships. It seems like an oxymoron, doesn't it? It does, but that's where the research. Lots and lots and lots of research.00:15:47
The greatest power that you have is when you give it up, right? Kind of going back to Obi Wan Kenobi. Obi Wan Kenobi, yes, I get what you were saying. You thought that was ridiculous. But look, that's an awesome example of giving up power to take.00:16:03
Well, not to take. No, to share it. To receive it. To have even higher power, to more power. But not from a selfish standpoint.00:16:11
No. Totally. A totally selfless. I want to go watch Star wars tonight just because of this here. So this kind of reminds me a little bit.00:16:20
You're talking about this. I'm thinking about a couple of books I've read that go along with this that are really good they're by the Arbinger Institute. I love them. Yes, but the anatomy of peace. And I keep thinking about the example of the Ottoman Turks when they took over Jerusalem back in the.00:16:41
I don't know, when it was like 14 hundreds, I think. And instead of using power over force, dominate control, they had shared power. They took over. They took over this area. And it was really strange.00:17:00
They allowed their captives access to power, and they were okay with it. It's the same thing with. It was very peaceful. Yeah, it was a peaceful time. And the same thing with this other example of a man and a woman actually going through divorce and working together.00:17:23
They called it inside the box and outside the box. If we're thinking in the box, we're caught up in our own emotions, our own thoughts, our own stories that we tell ourselves. If we're outside the box, we allow others their story and their perspective. That's power sharing. And I want to live outside the box.00:17:47
That's the other book, is leadership and self deception. So once we can self differentiate because we have shared power and power to do good, we can regulate our emotions better. We can self soothe. We can respectfully disagree and be a peacemaker. We're not only able to have that power to do good when we have shared power, we have personal power also that can allow us to do that.00:18:17
So we're talking about power, and I want to bring up a little bit about, it's this age old thing that men have done over the ages, and it's quite controversial these days. I don't know why. And that is opening the door for your sweetheart. Right? So there are mixed reviews on this, but I feel very passionate about this.00:18:43
Opening a door for you is highly important for me, and I love it. So here's why. I do not open the door for you to let you out of the car or let you into the building, because poor, pitiful you, you're so weak, you cannot open the door. That is not it. That's incorrect.00:19:03
That's not the story that anyone should be telling themselves. The story that I tell myself and then I want to share with you is I respect the feminine power that you represent. I love that, and I want to do everything I can to respect that. So I want to give you a little red carpet experience. Okay, tell me one woman who does not like feeling pampered, even if it's just a small gesture, right?00:19:38
You open the door. Now, I'm not talking about a random woman. I'm talking about your honeydeh, your spouse. The feeling of spouse. You open the door for them wherever they go.00:19:50
You stand up when they come in the room or you wait to eat until after they've started eating. It's kind of like a little Cinderella experience. Right. And I don't know of any woman who does not like that and who would not like that, given all of those circumstances. We're not taking power from you.00:20:11
I'm respecting the feminine power that you represent. This is not a stodgy, outdated, old notion. I think you said, there are more important things to talk about. And I said, okay, but I mean, you're the executive producer, so I guess you can cut this out if you want, but it is important to talk about. You're right, because it does show respect for women.00:20:35
Well, and the other thing, too is I can open your doors for you and then treat you horribly behind those doors. Doors. And that is not what I'm talking about either. It is when I open a door for you. This is a very, very important, symbolic gesture of honoring feminine power within you that you represent and that you hold.00:20:59
I love that. And I know you also walk on the outside of the sidewalk when we're walking down streets. Yeah. These seem to be like old things that nobody does anymore. But I think it's symbolic.00:21:10
It is. And it's really meaningful, especially if you back it up behind those doors and you treat that, I think is the most important because you can't open a door for your sweetheart and then not treat her, right. Yes. And that is, that's not good. Right?00:21:32
Not good. That's right. Well, some solutions that we want to talk about are you twofold. And I'm going to talk about the first and Scott will talk about the second. You know, Scott, I've just really noticed that sometimes I can do the very same thing.00:21:49
In one situation I feel powerless, and in the other situation, I feel empowered. And it the same thing. It's not about the thing that needs to be done, but it's whether I have choice in it or not. Okay. So, for example, I stayed home with our children the years before they started school.00:22:13
I could have stayed home with my children and resented that I didn't get to complete my career. I was headed for graduate school at that point, 22 years earlier than I actually went. I had a position in university administration that was virtually promised to me that I gave up, and I could have resented those things, but instead of choosing to have that career, I chose to stay home. That could have been something that later created a lot of frustration in me. A lot of anger in me.00:22:52
If you had said, you are staying home with our children and you don't have a choice, or if society had said that was how it had to be, I could have gotten really burned out and felt like I was really missing out on what I wanted. But because I got to make that choice and you supported me in it, even though it was super, super, super hard. And at times I felt like I was incapable of that, that was a lot harder than the other path. But because I chose that, I was comfortable with that. And at times, it energized me when I felt like giving up.00:23:31
That's on a big scale. But there are other, smaller things that we do. Silencing ourselves, and especially as women, about what our desires are, what our thoughts are, how we feel about things, does not help us tap into our power. It does not help us tap into our agency. And so we can intentionally take that power, use our voices in peaceful, calm ways, not by putting the other person down or by exerting dominance, but in a shared power kind of circumstance.00:24:11
That's what truly gives us power. It sounds like you're trying to learn a new language. Really? Yes. And it starts with the individual, both.00:24:24
For me, it starts as a woman. For you, it starts as a man. But women, we really need to work on reclaiming our voice because we tend to self silence a lot. We need to internalize our personal authority and create boundaries that we enforce. Equality in partnerships starts with individuals.00:24:44
The reality is, you and I, we have to start as individuals. Me, myself, and I, just like we talked about with our four cornerstones, all start with the letter I to remind us that it starts with me. Yeah, I think the moment that we start thinking, oh, this is so great for my spouse, for someone else, you're not getting it right. It starts with me, with I. My individual efforts can ripple out to impact you, to impact our children.00:25:14
And we're seeing that actually, in some people, it's so satisfying. So, so satisfying. On the other hand, individuals who blame their spouses or others for their circumstances, even though what they're blaming them for may be reality, it does prohibit their progression, which impacts their identity. So if they continue to blame their spouse for the problems, they will not fix the marriage. Instead of picking up their own agency and saying, okay, what am I going to do?00:25:47
How am I going to move forward with this? What is it that I want? But what if it's really, really convenient to just blame my spouse? Just. It's your fault.00:25:57
I'm comfortable with that. I'm not going anywhere. What I'm hearing you saying is, you can't do that anymore. You can't blame your spouse. You got to start with you.00:26:08
And not only do you have to start with you, you have to start finding your voice, learning a language, learning things that you haven't done. Because if you want to make this marriage work, you need to start doing things that you have not done before. And the kick to that is you gotta do that. Whether or not your spouse changes because of it. It's despite your spouse.00:26:30
Despite your spouse, despite nothing that they do. It's going to be what you do and what you decide to do. Right. Because it will heal your wounds within yourself. It will help you have better well being and be happier.00:26:45
So I think that's kind of the purpose of getting around to this, is it starts with me, myself, and I. If I'm going to have a scintillating marriage, I need to learn what it means to have power. I need to discover power. If I feel powerless, I need to discover it. I don't need to talk about how you're taking it from me.00:27:12
I needed to discover my own. Okay, then let's also talk about the solution when both partners are willing to come at it and work with it. Yes. So we kind of have a saying here that true power can never be taken. It can only be discovered and only be given out of free will.00:27:34
It can never be taken. Power is taken. That is not true power. So get together. This week, we've talked about intentionality being one of the four cornerstones.00:27:48
We need you to get together, intentionally, plan, put it on your calendar, schedule it, to be together, to talk together, to talk about if this is safe, to talk about if the things that are creating these power imbalances or your perception of them. The story that I'm telling myself is this. Is this true or not? That's a perfect recipe for how to say that. That is using an I statement.00:28:18
Yeah. So I feel right. Instead of you do this, you're doing. Yeah. So that.00:28:25
That's not gonna. That's just not gonna go anywhere. We have to say, this is a story I'm telling myself, is this true or not? And bounce it back to them. This is a story they're telling themselves.00:28:40
Okay, let's talk about it. Every time we do that, we kind of chuckle a little bit, like, whoa, that is not a story I'm telling. The stories we tell ourselves are rarely right. So get together. We like to call these things couples councils, but the whole idea is to have a neutral, non judgmental communication and mutual respect.00:29:05
Those are the great power equalizers. There must be a healthy, continuous exchange of power, and the best way to do that is by counseling. Together. We invite you to examine where you might be exerting power over. Then come together with your partner.00:29:24
Explore. Embrace where each of you can make changes to create shared power with. Power with. Lastly, discuss how shared and balanced power can allow you to have power to do things together that you never could have done before. Power too.00:29:44
Power too. Next week, we will be talking about couples counsel in detail so you can get an idea of what this looks like. Kind of a template for your marriage. We're really excited to share that with you. Right.00:30:00
And we have a couple of different templates that they may want to use. Yeah. Or create their own. And you can go totally create your own, too. Just, we're trying to get this ball rolling.00:30:08
So you start talking to each other intentionally, weekly, regularly, and power is created. It's created for both of you. It's awesome. It's fantastic. We're seeing it in people's lives and it's so fulfilling.00:30:24
And can I just say, when I see shared power, it really opens the door for a tremendous increase in love. Yes, I believe that that's very true, that love can only exist on shared power. And maybe shared power is love. And remember, the intelligent spouse knows that to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in themselves. We really are so grateful that you joined us today, and we look forward to having you join us next time on marriage.00:31:06
Marriage IQ.
