Episode 23. From Stale to Scintillating: A Tool for Breathing New Life into Your Marriage
This week's Marriage IQ podcast episode tackles how to create balanced power dynamics within your relationship. We hope you will love our candid chat. We model vulnerability by getting real about our own marriage, even when it got messy navigating Heidi's shifting sense of self and authority. Our story shows that discovering your voice and reclaiming your power starts from within. We share research-backed ideas about moving from "power over" to "power with." This involves embracing shared decision-making, mutual influence, attunement, and vulnerability. We all hold assumptions about power - this episode will get you reflecting on yours.
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Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse. I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings. And I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings. We are two doctors, two researchers, two spouses, two lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones, using intelligence mixed with a little fun.00:00:35
Welcome back to marriage IQ, and we are your hosts, Doctor Heidi and Scott Hastings. Tell me, is your marriage stale, boring, and monotonous? Ooh, I hope not. The same song, different day, week, month, year, over and over. Does your marriage lack sizzle heat and the burning hot flames of passion?00:01:03
Ooh, do you feel stagnant? Do you suffer from the pina colada syndrome? If you like pina colada and getting caught in the rain, that kind virgin for us, of course. Then listen on, you brave, intelligent, scintillating warriors. This week's episode of Marriage IQ is sure to quench your thirst for that scintillating marriage that still sizzles after 2040, 60 and more years of being together.00:01:39
We've talked about marriage retreats in previous episodes, and some of you have asked, what are marriage retreats anyway? That's a great question. And to introduce that, I'd like to put it in a framework that goes along with one of our rituals. So every Saturday morning, Scott, you and I make breakfast with Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald playing in the background. I'm 100% convinced that Louis Armstrong will be singing as I ascend to heaven after I die.00:02:09
That's who I'm gonna hear. Which song? It's a wonderful world, of course. Yeah, I agree with you. Well, during these breakfast, we dive deep into conversations while we're eating.00:02:20
And this morning, our conversation went down a path that led to how do we make sure that our time and money are being spent or focused on what matters most to us in life? Yeah. So eventually, our conversation evolved to the need for regular checkpoints to help us gain insight or needed perspective on changes and adjustments that we need to make. So we need to have these constant checkpoints. Well, in marriage, we intentionally set up several checkpoints to help us look at that.00:02:58
And a couple of those are, first, our weekly couples council, where we're checking each other. We're checking what our goals are. And the other one is marriage retreats. And this is the overarching checkpoint that we have in place that helps us plan for everything else, to make sure we're focused on what is most important. Kind of a higher altitude checkpoint, right?00:03:24
30,000ft high view of things exactly. So let's talk a little bit about some research here, because I like research. You like research? We both like research. According to the American Psychological association, about 40% to 45% of first time marriages end in divorce, 60% to 65% of second marriages end in divorce.00:03:51
And it keeps going higher the more you get married and divorced. But if you average it out, these all out, the divorce rate is still somewhere around 50%. So it's pretty high. There's a lot of people with marriages that aren't super awesome and thriving. Right.00:04:11
And even though several of those don't end in divorce, they're really lacking that sizzle that you were talking about. However, for a plug for marriage, a study by Gallup last year, 2023, they assessed how people thrive. It's called the Gallup's health and wellness index. And married people did quite a bit better than never married people, divorced people, or people living together, but not married. And about 61% in this last year of married people said they were thriving.00:04:52
It's really great. That's higher than I would have thought. Yeah. Compared to 45% of never married, 45% are divorced and 48% in a domestic partnership. So they're just together living together.00:05:04
They're not married. And that gap's been pretty stable since they started doing it back in 2009. So plug for marriage and happiness. So, how does that fit into our marriage retreats? Well, because we are helping set the stage for not only are you now married, let's make it sizzle.00:05:26
Let's take it to the next level. Not just be married, not just exist, cohabitate, but move it forward. Move that needle up so you get the very best out of life. You only get to live once, as far as I know. And let's make it rock.00:05:48
Okay. A lot of this is built on being intentional, then. Yes. But actually, all of our cornerstones come into our marriage retreats. I think it's important to state before we explain the ins and outs of marriage retreats, that so much of what we teach on marriage iq comes from other people's research, other people's expertise.00:06:12
But our marriage retreat model, which we've been working on, really, over 20 years now, is something that I think is really unique to just you and me. Yeah. This is our baby. This is us, and this is truly what we owe, in large part, our ability to create a scintillating and a thriving marriage to. This is the secret sauce.00:06:39
Ooh. Are you sure you want to share the secret sauce? Absolutely. All right. I really want to, you know, Heidi, in preparing for this episode, it's been really fun to kind of go back in time and think about all the years.00:06:55
You know, I go back to, it seemed like forever ago in medical school when we really started this dirt poor and had little kids. And I remember someone had taught us about the importance of getting away, even as a student with little kids, at least once a quarter. Right. And we took that advice to heart very seriously. Yeah.00:07:24
So we found some friends. There's some other med school friends that, of course, we had to trust them. Right. With our kids. Right.00:07:32
They have to be very trustworthy people to watch our kids while we just got a quick getaway. And back then, we did, like, little. Just cheapo, like a bed and breakfast or a cheapo hotel. Often we'd go out in the country to a little amish town an hour away where it's quiet and you wake up in the morning and you hear the sound of hooves clip clap from horses and the carriage. I've just come back a hundred years or so, but I.00:08:07
They were pretty cheap, though. Whatever we could scrape together and do. But that's what made it, I think, really fun. Right. And it really did.00:08:16
It helped us kind of reset ourselves and stay connected during times that were pretty stressful and we didn't see a lot of each other. Yeah. So we're just still figuring things out. We're still pretty young in our marriage. About ten years ago, we started getting a little bit more intentional and starting discussing what we wanted to be kind of as a family, and developing a family identity, a marital identity.00:08:48
We started creating a family mission statement, even started talking about symbols, like a family crest that we created ourselves. Right. We eventually did. Yeah. We started creating intentional things that we do together and symbols that are really meaningful.00:09:09
I think so many of my memories of those conversations came in Tucson, Arizona. It was just a few hours away from our home, but on a three hour drive there, that's when we would have some of these conversations. Yeah. Were pretty deep. I love Tucson.00:09:28
Love it. Me, too. About five years ago, we started becoming even more intentional with our retreats, and we began setting an agenda and started taking notes and setting yearly goals, family goals, marriage goals, individual goals. And we started keeping this for posterity. In these binders, we've got two or three large binders with plastic pages full of notes of these and our couples council notes.00:10:03
So we have a history. If anyone's interested in seeing the Hastings family history, someday they can see it through all of these notes that we've taken over the years, it's been really fun for us this week to dive into some of those and see the progress that we've made. Yeah. Especially over the last five or ten years. Kind of fun to walk down memory lane on this and see how far we've come in the last few years.00:10:30
Absolutely. About three years ago, we became more intentional and started putting this together. So it hooks up with our weekly couples council. So now they're connected, they're not separate. They work together.00:10:49
Marriage retreats we use to come up with the next quarter's traits or goals or visions and things like that. And the power in that is that we've gone from talking about goals each year to actually accomplishing goals. We set as a couple, maybe 2025 goals each year, and we accomplish the vast majority of those. This is very intentional. It's on the calendar.00:11:16
It's a huge priority. So everything that we're going to talk about, if you want to succeed, if you want to have success with this, this has to become something that's really important to you and be very intentional about it. Yeah, it's great. I love it. It's fun.00:11:33
I love doing marriage retreats. We have found, personally, that our marriage retreats are vital to our marriage. They include snuggling, sex, remembering, connecting more deeply with each other, having a lot of fun, making memorable moments together, and having a shared vision, planning our future together. So, Scott, do you want to describe just a little bit about the outer workings of this? So I am the travel guy.00:12:06
For some reason. I love to plan travel. And I guess you're the beneficiary of that. Yes, I am. I excitedly get online and I look for hotels these days.00:12:20
It's two nights. Back when we had little kids, it was one night. I like two nights because it allows us to settle in. It's on a weekend. So like a Friday night, Saturday night at a hotel, usually around where we live.00:12:34
Sometimes we go out of town, but usually we stick around town. And we usually get in Friday evening because I get off work. We get hopped in the car with our luggage, we drive to the hotel. We don't have anything planned Friday night other than dinner and something fun, something relaxing. We do go to the symphony or a musical play or bill's cover bandaid.00:13:00
So then we start diving into the formality of it on Saturday morning. Yeah, Saturday morning is really where it picks up. So once we start the formal part of our marriage retreat, it's broken into two main parts. The first part, we're working on identity types of things. And the second part we're working on, what are our priorities in life?00:13:22
So let me take you on a little journey through what our discussion and our marriage retreat agenda looks like. In that first few moments, we read together our family mission statement. We put it together, a couple of years of thinking, who are we? We put it on a piece of paper, and then we had it made into a formal document that is framed and hanging in our main room in our house. This is who we are.00:13:53
This is like our Magna Carta, our constitution. It's a living document, and it changes as we change, because our identities change, because who we are as a family changes a little bit. Every few years, we'll make some changes and reprint it. We do have to say we started out thinking this was going to be what all of our family members would be. But as our children have grown older and they have become their own individual people, some of them don't subscribe to all of the things that we do.00:14:29
They may not politically have the same views that we do, they may not religiously have the same views that we do. But that has helped us realize this is really my mission statement, and your mission statement is ours. One thing they do know, my love, is they do know that we love them. They do. And I think they still subscribe to a lot of the elements.00:14:52
They may not agree with us, but they know that we love them. Absolutely. Yeah. The second thing we do is we talk about our family theme. Each January, we set a family theme that's just a few words long.00:15:08
This will be the focus of our family. Or now that it's just you and I at home, it's our focus for the year. We've chosen themes over, I don't know, ten or 15 years now that include things like, we can do hard things. Harmony in our home. I remember we were having a lot of fighting for a while with our kids.00:15:32
And so that was Hunter and Sadie. Yep. That was a big focus for the entire year. And funny, I don't know that the fighting actually stopped, but we started singing in harmony. We started singing in harmony, and we found that to be a few moments every evening that everyone got along.00:15:54
And we sound really good when we sing. That's right. I'm just saying. And music is really a core value for all of the members of our family. We had a year where it was expect miracles in 2020.00:16:07
We chose the theme. See the good. Which so, interestingly, 2020. Get it? Yeah.00:16:13
Well. But it was inspired, I think. Yeah, we sat there. I remember see the good. See the good.00:16:19
2020. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. And then two weeks later, bam. Three months later.00:16:25
Oh, no. It was. It was like January. Yeah. Yeah.00:16:30
That's when it really started. That's. You're right. So, in 2018, we chose a theme. Enjoy it and laughter.00:16:37
We really wanted to lighten the load. I think that was my idea. It had to be because you love to laugh, and I laugh responsibly. So trying to get all of us to laugh more. As we set that focus, we were intentional about really planning things to help us take our stress level down a little bit, enjoy life, and find the humor in things.00:17:00
Great year. It was. Do you remember any of the things we did that year? We took notes of it in our couples council. Oh, yeah.00:17:07
Well, look, I try to instill humor wherever I can. I think it's the best medicine. It is. So, yeah, we had lots of shows that we watched together with the kids. Meaningful shows that we just laughed and we had that connection, that bond.00:17:24
Yeah. The Goldbergs. The Goldbergs. We still watch the Goldbergs. Psych.00:17:27
With Ewan Hunter. Yep. Yeah. We found funny friends to hang out with. We intentionally said, okay, who is funny?00:17:34
And let's plan things with them. We try to be more spontaneous. We make s'mores out on the back patio at night. Yep. With the guitar, singing together, little twinkly lights.00:17:49
Yeah. Yeah. That was fun. Fun times. I even tried hard to not shut down your humor by rolling my eyes at your twelve year old jokes.00:17:58
Sometimes the next thing we do is we talk about a shared vision. This is really important for couples to dream together about what we want our future to look like down the road. So we have a one year vision. Can you think of any things that. That might look like?00:18:17
Well, I remember one year. Let's see. Oh, from 2020 vision. Our one year vision was we see Heidi getting accepted into a PhD program, which I did that year. Awesome.00:18:32
And we also talked about seeing ourselves in a different home, which is a big deal. Yeah. Seeing ourselves as travelers to new places and back on the seeing ourselves in a new home. We wanted something that was more simple because all of our kids were going to be gone that night. Maybe newer, brighter, cleaner.00:18:50
Yeah. And with traveling, we did get to travel, but not one good trip. Yeah. They shut down the country when we were in, what was it? Brussels or Dublin?00:19:04
I don't remember. We were in Ireland. Yeah. That was fun. Right?00:19:09
So we talk about a three year vision that gives us time to put things in place to accomplish greater goals. So in that year, we said in three years, we see ourselves as being debt free, and we see ourselves serving a humanitarian medical mission for a couple of weeks. So the three years from 2020, I think we've done both of those. We've done those, too. So we also made a five to ten year vision that's way longer out.00:19:42
We see ourselves serving a longer term medical humanitarian mission. We see ourselves starting a nonprofit to help strengthen marriages and families. Right. And I think we even put in there something about seeing ourselves as marriage experts. Well, here we are.00:20:02
Marriage IQ. We're taking a stab at that. That's great. The next thing we talk about in our marriage retreats is character traits. Who do we want to be and how do we want to change?00:20:15
Years ago, we made a long list of attributes that we want to attain in this life to help us develop character traits. Many of those we came up with by looking at people that we really admire and seeing what makes them like they are. What attributes do they have? Can you think of any of those that we have on that long list that we have worked on? We try to do them all at once, and then we realized, no, this isn't working.00:20:42
We got to, like, chunk it up. So we started just picking three. Trying to be more compassionate, more grateful. Gratitude. I know.00:20:51
Joy. Yeah. Joy. Curiosity. Spontaneous.00:20:55
That's a big one. You like? Quite often. Yeah. Awe.00:20:58
One of them is wonder and awe. Yeah. So just different traits that we want to be become over time and just be thinking about it and trying to live our lives through that lens. Right. And then we do take those and we write them on our couples council.00:21:18
So we're talking about every single reminding. Okay, what are our three traits? What are our three traits? Do you remember what our three traits are right now? Well, of course.00:21:26
Okay. What are they? Love, compassion, and meekness. That's right. That's good, because we talk about it every week.00:21:34
Yeah. The second half of our marriage retreats are focused on what are our priorities. We personally have identified our priorities as marriage, family, God, finances, work, and home. Other people may have different priorities, but this understanding of what our priorities are then helps us set goals and put those into our relationships. From our vision, we set goals every January.00:22:07
Right. So visions are more of who we want to be, who we want to be. Our identity, it's not as concrete. Goals are, like, more concrete, practical, day to day. Can I check this off or not?00:22:18
You know, and so. And we make smart goals. What's the goal? So smart is this needs to be specific, bound by time. Yeah.00:22:27
It needs to be realistic and it needs to be measurable. That's the m and I think, attainable. Yeah. So we got them out of order. Yeah.00:22:38
You don't want to do something that you're just not going to be able to do. Like, you're not never going to fly by flapping your arms up and down, but you can read a book by the end of the month and have that as a goal. Typically on New Year's Day and maybe even the day after that. Marriage retreat's gonna be a lot longer than some of our other ones. And we spend that time together setting goals.00:23:02
Yeah. One year's day, I remember we stayed in bed all day long just talking, and it was just at home. We didn't go anywhere. Yeah. And then another year, we were in New York and Times Square because.00:23:18
Do you remember why? Yeah, we set the goal to have a memorable. You hated the New Year's Eve that I planned the year before. I can't remember. What did we do?00:23:28
Oh, we were in some hotel. It was raining outside or cold. Oh, no. I think it was that I had Covid. You had Covid.00:23:36
And you said, this is terrible. And I was like, okay, let's set a goal to have a better New Year's Eve. We're setting a goal to have an exciting New Year's Eve. Well, we spent that in New York Times Square, like, right in the middle of everything. That was very exciting and probably something we'll only do once.00:23:58
But the next day we did stay in our hotel after we'd slept for quite a while, just stayed in our hotel working on our goals. Yeah, we have some good memories of some of those experiences with goal setting. So, yeah, personal goals, we each have our own. We spend quiet time that we set out for ourselves. And sometimes our personal goals interact with each other, and then we have our marriage goals.00:24:26
Our couple goals. That's the ones that we really focus on during that marriage retreat. Can I just say, a lot of times, our personal goals do become a couple goals. For example, this year I set a goal to hike the Grand Canyon. We'd lived 3 hours from the Grand Canyon for ten years, and I've never been there.00:24:46
And you're so awesome and don't want me to hike it alone. And so you're coming with me to do that, which then becomes a couple goal, right? Yeah, we made that into a couple goal this year. A lot of times, I think our couple goals revolve around healthy eating, exercise. We want to be more culturally refined.00:25:11
We want to make memories together. We have a lot of couple goals surrounding travel learning. We often have a couple goals that help us expand our learning. So we have a couple of books that we have that we want to read together and conferences that we go to to learn. There are some symphonies that we want to go to, arboretum once a quarter, those kind of goals.00:25:38
Right. And even some things that really stretch us, like the year that we climbed a mountain together. Yeah. So family goals, we don't do those as much now that we're empty nesters, other than how can we connect better with our children. But we do set some family goals as far as how can we get the whole family together?00:26:04
Once or twice this year we're spread across the United States. And how can we either take a trip somewhere together or how can we spend some time where most of the children can get there easily and even now with spouses. But it was a little different when they were younger. Do you want to share any memories that you have about that? Well, I just, I remember once where Emily wanted to make a goal, to go on a cruise together.00:26:38
Back then we had one child who would be over our family learning. We'd change this up every year, but one would be over our interactions with neighbors, planning, having neighbors for a big porch party, different things. But Emily was over activities committee that year and she likes to travel like me. I think it's genetic. But she wanted to go on a family cruise.00:27:02
And so she said, we're going to do this by taking money out of the grocery budget and putting it toward the travel budget. So that was her goal. And we made it a family goal and we did that. We took money out of the grocery budget, so we had to really scrimp and save on groceries so we could do the family cruise well. And I think also we told them we will pay for plane tickets.00:27:30
You have to pay for the cruise. And so they did a lot of cleaning our office that year as well. Good days, good times. Yeah. So after we make our goals, we split them into daily, weekly and monthly.00:27:45
And we print up our personal goal list and our marriage goal list. And every week for our couples council, we read what the goals are for the year. Yep. So it is pasted in my calendar book. I read it every week.00:28:02
Mine, too. We go over our weekly goals because if you do nothing else but read this every week, it's going to be in your brain and it's going to be there. It's going to percolate just underneath all the other things you're doing. And we make it important to try to accomplish most of those goals. But sometimes as the year goes on, we determine, ooh, I thought that was a goal of mine.00:28:25
I don't see how it's going to work this year. Yeah, you can. You're free to change them. I think the thing is, though, just reading it, even if you don't plan anything, just reading it every week to each other, it moves you, even if it's a little bit. I remember one year we had planned to go to Hershey's Park, Pennsylvania, with the two youngest.00:28:45
We had planned to go to the four Corners, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado. And we weren't able to do either of those that year. And so instead we went to a park with Hershey bars and played on little kid equipment. We rode our bikes down there, then came home and on our driveway we drew the four corners, rode our bikes around in a circle and we laughed and laughed and laughed. It was so important to us to accomplish the goal, but we just came up with a different way of doing it.00:29:27
Yeah. The next thing that we discuss in our marriage retreat is our finances. We have decided together to be accountable for every penny that we've been blessed with. But this is not where we do our budgeting. This is where we look at our finances from 30,000 foot view.00:29:46
This, at some points in time has been an uncomfortable topic for us because we didn't see eye to eye on some things financially, but, well, sometimes we still don't. That's true. But as we talk about this in our marriage retreats and what our overall financial goals are, I think it's been easier to come together with a shared vision. What the budget items, it allows us to kind of move and shift where we want to put things. And this is the time that we move and shift our priorities.00:30:16
This is where we plan for our future. We talk about emergency preparedness. We talk about upcoming expenses that we weren't expecting. We have another wedding this December. We had one last December.00:30:29
Dance lessons. Yep, that's right. I. So those kinds of things we spend time discussing. We try to find a consensus on this, just like we do in couples council.00:30:43
Rather than one person saying, this is how it's going to go. We do a lot of discussion. We talk about our plans for our home. Are there any repairs that are needed? Are we wanting to make any renovations?00:30:57
How are our roles and responsibilities with household chores going? Do we need to make adjustments there? Is there any tax planning that we need to do yeah. Yeah. Just an overview of finances without getting into the fine details.00:31:15
We reserve that for our weekly couples council to go through the fine details of that week's budget. Right. The very last part of our marriage retreat is the action item part. Do you want to tell about that? Because that's the thing that we've added on most recently, but it's the game changer.00:31:32
So this is really. This is the money right here. We've taken everything that we've talked about for the last several hours over the course of a weekend, and we put it into one summary at the end of our marriage retreat notes. These are the action items that now we will take from our marriage retreat and look at every week during our couples council. So we know that we're on the right track from week to week.00:32:04
We're comparing and looking at this bigger, higher perspective from marriage retreat and then applying it practically on a week to week basis. So our yearly goals, our action items, we're putting them into our daily living so that we can achieve these action items that we've discussed during our marriage retreats. So, for example, because each time this year that we've had a marriage retreat, we've talked about hiking the Grand Canyon, we keep putting it on action. There's no way we would have done the Grand Canyon this year if it weren't for the. It keeps coming up.00:32:42
It keeps coming up. And then finally, within the last month, we're like, okay, time to book the flight. Finally beat us down. Time to book the hotel. So we have to do this.00:32:52
And we're doing it. And so Scott took care of those. I found the hikes that we wanted to go to. We've been exercising at the gym every week, and we were not prepared to do rim to rim by the time it came down to it. So we made some adjustments and we're going to do a full day hike up and back, but not rim to rim.00:33:12
So being flexible also helps with this. So this all might sound really great to all of you, and you might be thinking, oh, this sounds great, but do I really need a marriage retreat with my spouse? Yes, you do. And they're important. You might ask, how do I do a marriage retreat with small children?00:33:42
Get creative. We found some folks to trade off with. Again, got to trust people that you're trading your children off with. And I think in the early years, there were occasions where your parents or my parents would come and watch the children. Yeah.00:34:00
Sometimes you may actually need to pack along your newborn walls. Can't talk and neither can babies. So you're safe. So how do I do marriage retreats if my spouse doesn't want to? Well, you plan it anyways.00:34:18
And you discuss what you would like to see happen. And I think you simplify it. You start somewhere. Yeah. Even if it's in your own home.00:34:30
Finding some kind of a shared vision. We do recommend and advise getting out of your house to do the marriage retreats, but it gets you out of the norm. It gets you thinking different ways, different perspectives. So we do recommend that and not having the interruptions. And how often do we do marriage retreats?00:34:54
That's a good question. That's evolved for us. Yeah, it was, I think in the beginning. I don't know what it was, but it went to every three months, then every two months. So somewhere in there it's what we do.00:35:04
You find out what works for you. Right. We try to keep it at least quarterly, because otherwise we lose focus a little bit. So let's talk about something you can do this week. An action item in your marriage.00:35:19
Decide together. Schedule your very first marriage retreat. If you haven't had one yet, at least plan a date. Do not have any money, can't decide where to go? Well, wait till next week and you'll get lots of ideas.00:35:36
Let's bring this back about how we become more intentional. The four cornerstones. How do we gain insight? How do we increase our intimacy and know who we are, know our identity? All of these are elements within our marriage retreats, for sure.00:35:58
Yes. The marriage retreat is where you can come back and really refocus on all of these and move forward. I just want to say, too, it doesn't always go seamlessly. I think maybe our listeners heard in a previous podcast on autopsies about one time that we had kind of a big fail for a while, but we've never had a marriage retreat where the entire thing failed. Maybe a couple of hours.00:36:31
Yeah. And then we did some repairing, especially because we were somewhere else and we needed to finish out our time together somewhere else. But this really is an opportunity to look eye to eye and say, okay, we need a redo. We need to look at this a little bit differently. We need to learn from it and make some changes before our next one.00:36:55
But they're always, always valuable. Agreed. I love that. So let's. For next week, I have a question.00:37:04
How can we do a marriage retreat for free? Well, we'll give you the lowdown or close to free. Close to free. And with that, we wish you a great week. Have a great week, everybody.00:37:20
And remember, the intelligent spouse knows that to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in themselves. Thank you all for tuning into marriage IQ. We hope today's episode brought you valuable insights. Remember, the conversation doesn't end here. If you are interested in more information on this topic or to learn more about what we do, check out our website, Dr.00:37:47
Heidi Hastings, PhD. and if you get the chance, we'd love to have you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It really helps us get the word out about marriage IQ, and we appreciate your support. Thanks again for listening. Keep exploring and we'll catch you next time on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
