Episode 85. Wait… You Taught Sex Ed in Church? In 1975? | Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner (Part 1)
Fidelity, Faith, and Fulfillment: A Faith-based Blueprint for Marital Sex
When was the last time you had a truly honest conversation about intimacy in your marriage? For many couples, sex is one of the most important pieces of their relationship—and yet, it’s also the one topic that often goes unspoken.
That’s why my husband Scott and I were thrilled to sit down with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner—pioneers who have spent nearly 50 years helping couples navigate sexuality with honesty, faith, and heart. Long before it was socially acceptable to talk about sex in church or counseling offices, the Penners were boldly breaking silence, equipping couples to embrace intimacy as a vital, godly part of marriage.
Their story begins in 1975, when Joyce—raised in a conservative Mennonite community where sex was never discussed—was asked to teach a group of 60 women about sexual adjustment. She and Clifford had no idea that saying “yes” to that class would set them on a lifelong journey of writing, counseling, and shaping the way thousands of couples understand intimacy.
And here’s the truth they’ve discovered after half a century: most couples don’t need a radical reinvention of their relationship. They need intentional, values-based practices that make intimacy safe, mutual, and meaningful.
Mutuality: The Heart of Marital Intimacy
One of the Penners’ most powerful insights is the idea of mutuality.
In their words: “The marriage bed has to be as good for one as it is for the other if it’s going to last a lifetime.”
Think about that for a moment. So many of us approach intimacy with unspoken expectations: one partner feels pressure to always be in the mood, the other feels guilty for wanting more, or both assume that “good sex” means reaching a certain goal. Over time, that kind of pressure erodes connection.
Mutuality flips the script. It’s not about duty or demand—it’s about shared enjoyment. Each partner’s voice, needs, and desires carry equal weight. When intimacy feels mutual, it becomes a gift freely given, not a performance to be graded.
Practical ways to build mutuality:
Ask your partner what helps them feel safe, cherished, and connected before intimacy.
Share what makes you feel cared for (it might be something as simple as a slow hug or words of affirmation).
Take the pressure off “results” and focus instead on enjoying each other’s presence.
Moving from Performance to Connection
The Penners also warn against one of the biggest intimacy killers: performance mentality.
Maybe you’ve been there—running mental checklists: Am I doing this right? Am I enough? Are they enjoying this as much as last time? Instead of being present, you’re stuck in your head.
But here’s the shift: intimacy isn’t a scoreboard. It’s not about how quickly, how often, or how well. True intimacy is about connection—eye contact, laughter, the way you hold each other afterward.
When couples move away from measuring themselves against performance and toward focusing on connection, sex becomes less about proving and more about experiencing. And in that shift, couples often find themselves enjoying intimacy far more.
Why This Matters
The Penners’ wisdom isn’t just about sex—it’s about building marriages that last. They’ve counseled thousands of couples who thought they were “broken” or “beyond repair,” only to find hope when they embraced principles like mutuality and connection.
For couples of faith, their work is especially meaningful because it reframes sexuality as something sacred, not shameful. But even for those who don’t share their religious background, the lessons are universal: intimacy thrives when it’s intentional, equal, and rooted in real connection.
Final Thought
You don’t need a Ph.D. or 50 years of counseling experience to apply what Clifford and Joyce Penner have taught. You only need a willingness to say yes—to conversations that feel awkward at first, to practices that may be new, and to the belief that your marriage can always grow deeper.
Because the truth is, intimacy isn’t static. It’s alive, it’s evolving, and—if nurtured with love and intention—it can be one of the most life-giving parts of your marriage.
✨ Want to dig deeper? Tune in to our full conversation with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner on the Marriage IQ podcast. Their wisdom is rich, practical, and filled with hope for couples at any stage of marriage.
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0:02
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast for the Intelligence Spouse.I'm Doctor Heidi Hastings.And I'm Doctor Scott Hastings.We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun.
0:34
Hello.Everyone and welcome back to another powerful episode of Marriage IQ.We often highlight pioneers in the field of marriage research, but today, Scott, we have the incredible privilege of speaking with two true Trail Blazers in the world of healthy sexuality in marriage relationships.
0:54
We have Doctor Clifford and Joyce Penner with us.Welcome.We're glad to be here.Wonderful.Happy to have you.Believe it or not, they've been teaching and counseling about godly, wholehearted sexuality for almost 50 years, long before it was something that people felt comfortable talking about.
1:20
And to be honest, people today still struggle with that.Definitely.And that was true for us growing up also.We were both raised in the Mennonite community.Is that right?Yeah, we always think God had a real sense of humor.Oh, we, we.Mennonites where the S word was never addressed.
1:38
We lived among Mennonites and Amish people in Indiana for a few years, and so we're a little bit familiar with that.Yeah, that's fascinating.And we get a lot of calls from that community both in the US and Canada because they feel comfortable particularly with me for some reason I don't know.
1:56
Why?Coming from a woman, I think it's especially helpful for women to hear about sex from women, right?Both of us were actually pursuing our own careers.I got my doctorate in clinical psychology.And I got my master's in nursing from UCLA and was a nursing professor, and my minor was psychosomatic medicine.
2:19
So we had no idea you were going to be called to this, but obviously God prepared us for it because our backgrounds just were perfect for doing this.Through a set of circumstances, we were asked to teach a bunch, a group of 60 women on healthy sexual adjustment.
2:37
And I was asked, and then I prevailed upon Joyce because she was a professor.And that was 1975.That's 50 years ago.Scandalous.I know and Cliff had been asked to teach a mother's class at our church on talking to your kids about sex and that was a 45 minute talk.
2:55
And there was a woman there from Fuller Seminary who wanted us to teach A10 week Class, 2 hours a week to 60 women.He said, he said, I said everything I knew in 45 minutes.And my wife is the academic.
3:11
We're not prepared for this.And they pushed and pushed to that.We just studied everything that was available at that time and presented these two hours for 10 weeks.And it changed our lives.We often share with our kids that and now our grandkids that saying yes to something can open all kinds of doors in your life.
3:33
And we just are so grateful that we said yes, even though it felt like, what on earth are we doing doing this?No, we, we did get trained then yes and.Became.Qualified people and then.Certified we are. 12 books and 50 years later.
3:51
My goodness.And there you are terrific writers.That's.Great.What a privilege.But here on Marriage IQ, we always approach the topic of sexuality from a values based perspective, one that honors fidelity and sees sex as sacred, rooted in love and intimacy, and excludes anyone outside of the marriage bond.
4:11
And we personally come from a Christian faith tradition.And while not all our listeners share that background, we believe that there's value in exploring different perspectives.One day you'll probably be likely to hear from a Jewish or Muslim or other faith-based most likely expert on here today.
4:27
But today we felt like the Penners were very well qualified to talk about this from a Christian perspective and share what they've learned about embracing sexuality, healthy sexuality, right through a Christian lens.
4:43
Right.And we actually are received in many other faith-based communities as well.Even though we come from that perspective, our principles go along with other faith.Based people.In fact, we were noting how many of our principles go along with your basic 4 principles of.
5:05
Our 4 cornerstones.Yeah, intimacy and intentionality, identity and insight.And we think there are 5 principles that we have that promote a healthy sex life in marriage.These are to embrace our female male differences or even just our individual differences.
5:25
And that really has to do with our identity, you know.And that we understand from scripture that men are to love sexually as Christ loves us.That when the man is able to adore and affirm his wife and that the woman needs to learn to listen to her body and then share her body with him.
5:48
And that's so example of that is so clear in the Song of Solomon.But then the first principle is with our identity is embracing our knowing ourselves and embracing our differences.We we add 1 to your list of four and that is mutuality doesn't start with the letter I but.
6:08
Yeah, it doesn't fit nicely.So yeah.And if you look at First Corinthians Chapter 7, verses 3 through 5, the marriage must be a place of mutuality, the marriage bit.It has to be as good for one as it is for the other if it's going to last a lifetime.
6:23
And that's one thing that has been come so clear over these 50 years.It can't be just one trying to please the other, unless we're freely giving ourselves to each other and free to enjoy each other not by demand, but by the gift.
6:41
It makes such a difference.And it's so important to to recognize it in the New Testament.Every reference to sexuality, marriage in marriage, includes some kind of a reference to that.It has to be mutual and has to be as good for one as this is for the other.
6:58
Otherwise it won't last for a lifetime.You know, whether that's submit yourselves one to another and then the difference ways that we submit and then the intimacy factor we say.So it's enjoying our female differences, pursuing mutuality, and then focusing on pleasure, enjoyment, connection, rather than looking for results.
7:22
And let's be really clear what we mean by that.We believe the real intimacy happens when two people can enjoy the pleasure of the experience rather than focusing on the goal.So often the goal becomes getting one person aroused or the other.
7:39
Or am I responding?Or is she responding?Or all of those kinds of.Things is it as good as it was last time?And we become performance and goal oriented, which gets in the way of those interferes with those goals when we get focused on them and performing and standing outside the experience rather than focusing on the intimacy, the connection, the togetherness, the care of each other.
8:04
And then the one with insight.We kind of maybe a stretch there and I'm not sure if this is what you mean by insight, but we always say seek help or get some professional counseling for past hurts or dysfunction.
8:21
If there are issues there, we need to get help understanding those and working on those.And so that's what we would talk about in terms of insight and one of the ways to do that if we can't find a professional and if you know, you're in areas working with women or wherever where there are professionals, we find it very helpful for couples to read one of our books out loud to each other.
8:50
And it's how the brain works that the reading out loud shifts it from the right hemisphere of our brain, where it controls our body, to the left, the verbal side, where we get more control of it.And it also opens the door to being able to talk more freely.
9:09
Because many times individuals don't really have a language even to talk the.Words are uncomfortable to.Say and so when you can read it and and then the other thing that happens is that people will see themselves in the book and yet they know we're not addressing to just them.
9:27
It's a universal kind of thing.And so it becomes more acceptable.Diffuses the the feeling it's my fault or there's something wrong with me or why am I this way to be able to read and say, oh, I'm not the only one.
9:45
And it also is a way for couples to be able to say, well, that really doesn't fit us, I don't think.Do you, you know, so they can read it.And then the book becomes a therapist, a third person in the to help them through that process.Yeah.And that's inside as well, right?
10:01
Whether or not they feel it applies to them just thinking about it, talking through it, yeah, I think that definitely fits with our cornerstone of insight.There you go.And then the last one that you talk about is intentionality.That's huge for us.The reason is because everyone wants their sexual life just to happen naturally, and yet particularly once kids come and life comes along, if you're not intentional about it, it's not going to work nearly as well as if you are deliberate going after it, choosing it all the time.
10:34
In fact, we have a book, getting Your Sex life off to a great start for engaged and newly married couples.And it's so common for highly educated.Not this isn't, you know, people that don't know to say, oh, we wouldn't want to read that till we're married and we think, you know, we'd talk about it plan.
10:58
Now is the time.Verify your expectations, understand yourself, know yourself, know each other, you know all that.Be intentional about getting ready for it.For some people, it does work to just let it happen, but for the majority, our society bombards us with so many messages that aren't necessarily fitting for a good sex life and marriage.
11:22
And unless we understand what we're going into and know each other and are able to talk about it, it really makes a difference to do some reading ahead of time.Yes, yeah, that is.Very much intentionality.
11:40
Yeah, that is very important.So we felt like.Our 5.You could go with your cornerstones very easily they.Do they do?As far as like with identity, in order for for us to really become intentional about our sex life, we kind of be pretty comfortable in ourselves, right in our own skin and for all of us.
12:05
And I don't know, you're kind of a little bit different generation.You can tell me if this is still happening for you.But in my experience, I feel like at age 54 that I'm just barely starting to figure out who I really AM and that it's it's going to take a lifetime to figure out really who I am.
12:28
But we've got 30 years on you.Yeah, we're both 84, so.Wow, wow, and still talking about it then.So are you still finding creating an identity or not?Or you.Arrived.Have you arrived like?I don't think we ever arrived.
12:43
I think if we if we think we've arrived or probably dying or or we've stopped.Growing.Growing, you know.No, we we still discover things about each other.We've been married 62 years now.And dated 4 years before that.
13:01
We were 17 and 18 when we met each other well.What has surprised you in the last few years that you've learned about each other?I think just the fact that we'll hear something new that we never heard before, I think that's probably the biggest thing.
13:18
From each other.Yeah, from each other.Well, it's not like a like or dislike or.Yeah.Or just something that happened.We were with our kids just a few weeks ago and on vacation, and Cliff was sharing something from his past.And I said I didn't know that, you know, and it's surprising when there's something like that.
13:39
But I think the other thing as we've grown older that is very positive is we're much easier on each other in terms of this idea of embracing our differences.
13:59
We don't have to talk the other person into seeing it our way or being the way we are.There is actually a richness in our differences.You know, it makes us more interesting in a way when we can roll with the other person.
14:15
And I'm much more of an introvert than Cliff is, even though he won't believe that as much as I'm talking.Wouldn't have just that?But this topic, when I'm on it's OK, but in a social setting and it really helps me to just kind of accept that and roll with Cliff and let him lead in that and.
14:37
Often tease choice that she doesn't mind standing in front of 10,000 people talking about intimate sexual things.She just gets nervous at a party talking to two people.I feel you a little bit on that choice.Not that I've ever stood in front of 10,000 people at this point in life.
14:55
The thing that's kind of interesting to me is that Christian or not, Muslim or not or whatever it is, it's we are wired for connection.We are wired for connection.And part of that connection is to be with someone totally different from you.
15:13
And we spent a lot of time on this program.We bring in scientific, social, medical research to talk about the differences between in men and women because I think there is a push to say, hey, we are all the same and we are a lot the same in a lot of areas.
15:29
But it's, it's those differences that allow us to feel that richness of life.Those differences between man and woman coming together be as one experiencing not just sex together, but life and your, your story in your 80s, you've been together what, 64 years and you're still, you're finding new things out about each other and yet you still come back to this richness of we're different, we are different.
16:05
We're always going to be different in certain ways.And that's really, I think this is what creates a life filled with meaning.We like to say scintillating life a lot.What a great living example of two people who have been able to do that for most of their life.
16:23
A big chunk of your life.Yeah.Well, I was when you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that we always talk about the fact that during the first year or two of a relationship, when it's sexual and if the couple is married, there is a lot of adrenaline and dopamine.
16:40
But then after about 20-4 months, it has to shift into a bonding and oxytocin connection.And this is one of those changes that needs to happen for every couple.And sometimes couples don't make that transition from their premarital or early marital newness, intense dramatic kind of passion, passion, and think they've, they'll come in and say, I don't think he loves me anymore.
17:14
I don't think I love him anymore.And they define it as love missing rather than that it's shifting from something deeper that will last a lifetime.The hormone shift there, right?What we're talking about is the hormones that are being triggered.
17:30
Yes, and it isn't that we don't love it, just a different love.It's a quiet love.Doctor Ellen Short, UCLA, talks about it as quiet love versus excited love and that newness, excitement.Some people, especially men who have been hooked on pornography, will.
17:50
I think that's the way marriage sex should be.And yes, it often is when it's new or on vacation or in Special Situations.And we all need a little dopamine.And kissing is the part that gives us that dopamine surge.
18:08
But it's the hugging and the connection that gives us the bonding, the intimacy, the looking in each other's eyes.And we have a formula for intimacy that we encourage couples to follow that really helped them move from transition from the excited love to the long term quiet love.
18:27
What's your formula?What the formula is that that couples spend 15 minutes a day connecting on an emotional level.It begins with talking to each other and looking into each other's eyes.Just like parents are to an infant to 'cause that.
18:44
Bonding because we know that when we look in each other's eyes, it does raise the oxytocin level in our body.That's measurable.And we're standing right now to talk with all of you at our bar that's kind of our central station in our home and.
19:02
That sounds like.Not a alcoholic bar, but it's a bar that divides our kitchen from our family room and our den.And usually I'm around the corner.Now we're both on the same side.But it's that's our sharing time and we can look in to each other's eyes and share.
19:21
And so taking this 15 minutes a day, we encourage people to set a timer just to make sure they stay on track.Because so many times the man will feel like if we ever start talking, it's not going to end in 15 minutes.It's going to go on way longer.
19:37
You know how those women are.And talk and talk and talk, but sometimes it's the opposite.Sometimes it's the man who talks.But anyway, and just sharing something positive, it isn't the time to work out your differences or.Decide who's gonna pick up the dry cleaning tomorrow.
19:54
You know, it's just a few expressions of affirmation or something that happened today that I was excited about or some thought I had or creative idea, anything like that.It's just sharing something positive with each other.
20:11
So that's.The emotional connection that.Might take 5 minutes.And then if there is wherever they are on their spiritual journey, that could be reading a passage or a devotional or a sharing a thought or a.Prayer of.
20:27
Prayer or a Bible verse, whatever it may be, but some kind of connection at.This bringing God into our, in our faith, into our experience, whatever that faith base is.And and that again can just be another 5 minutes or less or less.
20:44
So it starts with the emotional eye to eye positive.The second is bringing your faith into it, your spirituality and then developing the physical.And that starts with a 22nd full body face to face hug.
21:01
And again set the timer.For 20 seconds.This is not a Southern Baptist hug.This is a total.Listen like this, you know, And the research shows that when you have that real embrace front to front for 20 seconds, after 20 seconds your body gives a big surge of oxytocin, and that's the trust hormone.
21:22
And particularly if there is someone in the relationship, either the husband or wife, who had some kind of abuse with kissing, because after this you can do a passionate kiss.And some, especially couples we work with in therapy, kissing usually has gone away or never was there.
21:45
When there are sexual problems.Kissing is kind of the barometer of how the sexual life is doing.So many times this is the hard part.What we encourage them to do is just with lips together, just start very gradually and you get to the place where you can have 5 to 30 seconds of passionate kissing.
22:07
And that raises the dopamine level.That gets the spark going.It keeps it going even after 60 some years.So you need that kissing part.So that's our formula for intimacy, the emotional connection for the oxytocin, the spiritual connection, the physical connection for the oxytocin with the hug and then the passionate.
22:28
And, and this kept passionate kissing is not designed to lead to sexual experience.It's an end in itself.It may, but that's not its purpose.And I teach a lot of mothers classes and when I say that they really.But what if he gets aroused?
22:44
You know when we kiss passionate.I said fine men get aroused every 80 to 90 minutes while they sleep and nothing happens, nothing falls off, nothing goes away because they don't kiss, because they won't act on it.So learning to be able to enjoy the sensations in the body without that being a message that I want sex because often couple women, particularly sometimes men won't kiss because then they think it has to lead to sex.
23:15
So when he comes up and wants to have a bit of a more passionate kiss, what goes through her mind is do I feel like having sex tonight?I'm not sure.So I better not lead him on.So we turn the cheek rather than the lips and then and that's how it drifts into no connection.
23:32
So This is why we call it a formula for intimacy, not a formula for sex, because it keeps the intimacy going.Yeah, it's OK.So it sounds to me like we need to sit down with each other and become intentional about this 15 minutes of connection so that there's no misunderstanding.
23:53
Because one thing we've learned is that the less we assume and the more we plan, the better we do.And so it sounds to me like this 15 minutes of connection that moves us into a more long lasting type of love.
24:10
We do it every day that we talk with each other and say, OK, during this 15 minutes of holding each other, talking to each other, touching each other, kissing each other, gazing at each other's eyes, we know it's not going to lead to sex.
24:25
And so that makes it easy for the guy or the woman.The guy might come home, they do this 15 minutes and then he gets he wants to do more.But if it's already planned ahead of time, then we know, OK, that's that's not we're not going there with this 15.
24:44
It might later, but not not there.Exactly.And that's why even with couples with little children around, they can do this with the kids there.In fact, it's good for the kids to know mommy and daddy take time with each other and if the little kid interrupts, it's not a big deal.
25:02
You can just go back and keep on track.So.I love that what you're talking about is supporting long term marriages.Yes.That can last as long as you're 64 years or longer because they've intentionally put things in place all along the way.
25:21
It sounds to me like you did that quite early on.I think we didn't do it early on, but somewhere along the way we started being more intentional about things like they.Have little vestiges of what they're talking about.It's not exactly the same thing, right?We have like a mindful hug, mindful gaze, but it's not all together.
25:40
In 115 minute.And we have a we take a 15 minute walk every night, but we're not gazing at each other.So this is a little bit different.I like it, though.This is really great, yeah.Yeah, add it to your little repertoire.Build it in.That's it for this part of our interview with Clifford and Joyce Penner, Part 1.
26:00
We hope you'll join us on Part 2, where we're going to talk about specific sexual problems that some couples face and how they, as sex therapists, treat and work with couples who have some very specific issues.Hope to see you then see you then on Part 2 of Marriage iQ.
26:17
Thank you.
