Episode 30. How to Stop Self-Silencing and Start Authentically Connecting
In the intricate balance of marriage, self-silencing can lead partners to lose sight of their authentic selves. This episode of Marriage iQ explores the profound impact of a weak sense of self and self-silencing on relationships, featuring insights from Dr. Amber Price, a researcher and educator specializing in helping busy moms thrive in their relationships.
The discussion delves into how a person’s self-perception impacts emotional intimacy and connection in marriage. Dr. Price explains the significance of having a strong sense of self, shares insights from her research on self-silencing and codependency, and provides practical tips for fostering autonomy and authenticity within relationships.
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Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse.[00:00:08 - 00:00:10]
I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings.[00:00:10 - 00:00:12]
And I'm Dr. Scott Hastings.[00:00:13 - 00:01:55]
We are two doctors, two researchers, two spouses, two lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose. To transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun. Hello, you intelligent spouses, and welcome back to another exciting episode of Marriage IQ. You all know that Scott and I are really big believers that to have a scintillating marriage, we have to start with ourselves. With ourselves. That's right. Well, today we have a really special guest joining us who is an expert in this very field. Her research focuses on the intricate dynamics of how a person views themselves and how that in turn impacts so many different parts of their lives, including their marriage or romantic relationship. So Dr. Amber Price is a researcher and an educator who is focused on helping busy moms specifically thrive in their relationships with themselves, with their spouse, with their kids, and with their friends. She helps women know and love who they are so that they can enjoy authentic connection in their relationships and find purpose and excitement in their daily lives. She's also a mom of four boys who are mostly in their teens right now. Oh, my gosh. That must be a fun household. And the wife of a Star wars loving chemistry professor. That's amazing.[00:01:57 - 00:01:58]
I'm.[00:01:58 - 00:01:59]
I'm Star wars fan.[00:01:59 - 00:02:00]
Yeah.[00:02:00 - 00:02:01]
Have to get together.[00:02:02 - 00:02:15]
Yeah. Amber loves reading. She loves working from her back deck, eating and baking cookies. And I found this really interesting that you love drinking hot chocolate every day, even in July.[00:02:15 - 00:02:21]
Yep, Yep. It's really true. Oh, yeah. I had it last night. I probably will have it after this today too.[00:02:22 - 00:02:44]
Well, Amber, I first got turned on to some of your research. We were both grad students and found some of your research on self differentiation. And we'd had some communication back and forth during that time. And I today was wanting to remind myself what some of your research topics were. But they all focus on sense of self.[00:02:44 - 00:02:44]
Mm.[00:02:45 - 00:03:06]
So one of them showed that when our sense of self is externalized, meaning we care more about what other people think, then we're not able to be as emotionally intimate. One was how our body image, which is. Is that an external part of our sense of self?[00:03:06 - 00:03:09]
Yeah. Yeah. What you just said would tie exactly to body image.[00:03:09 - 00:03:10]
Yeah.[00:03:10 - 00:03:14]
Like, if I'm worried about what I look like, then I'm externalizing my self perception.[00:03:14 - 00:03:30]
And then we're going to talk about a lot of parts of your dissertation. So welcome to our podcast. And we're really glad to have you here. Can you tell me first, how did you get interested in the topic of self differentiation, sense of self identity?[00:03:31 - 00:04:41]
I think it was probably what's true for a lot of us is it was a journey for myself, trying to figure it out for myself. I found myself buried in motherhood, and I loved motherhood, and I had a good husband and a good relationship, but I just found myself, like, a lot of us end up just kind of buried in it, losing a little bit of who I was, feeling like I was stretched really thin and not really knowing how to do anything otherwise, because it's like, well, which of these things am I going to put down in my life? Like, which of these things am I going to stop juggling? You can't stop juggling anything. But I just found myself in a place where my relationships were starting to feel strained a little bit. You know, I was just more snippy with the people who matter the most to me than I wanted to be my kids or my husband. I had some friendships that weren't going well, and I just decided I needed to do some work on myself. And I started to do that and found a couple of different experts who were teaching about sense of self. And it just really, really resonated with me. And I started working on my own sense of self, and I liked it so much that I was like, I'm going back to school and I'm going to study this. And so that's what I did. And I loved it. I love studying it.[00:04:41 - 00:05:06]
I don't think I bumped into sense of self until I got into grad school, but that for me also was a huge eye opener of, oh, this is why I'm struggling when some of my kids are not making decisions that align with what I taught them or that our values aren't exactly the same. And not only did it help me with myself, but it helped me understand them better.[00:05:06 - 00:05:07]
Yeah.[00:05:07 - 00:05:14]
Can you paint a picture for us of what having a strong sense of self might look like in marriage?[00:05:14 - 00:05:16]
Yeah. Let me define strong sense of self first.[00:05:16 - 00:05:17]
Okay, that's great.[00:05:17 - 00:05:41]
Thank you. I like to teach sense of self as three things. So first it's having a knowledge of who I am. Like, who am I? What do I like to do? What are my preferences? It could be as surface level as hobbies or interests, but it could go deeper to, like, a deeper sense of self awareness. Just having a concept of who I am, which that piece can start to slip away when we're busily taking care of everybody. Else. So that's piece one. Is that self knowledge?[00:05:41 - 00:05:43]
That sounds a little bit like identity.[00:05:43 - 00:05:44]
Yeah.[00:05:44 - 00:05:48]
And self awareness would be insight, Right?[00:05:48 - 00:05:48]
Right, yeah.[00:05:49 - 00:05:49]
Right.[00:05:49 - 00:05:53]
We're tying some of your concepts back to our four cornerstones.[00:05:53 - 00:06:47]
So I like your cornerstones. Yeah. Identity matters a lot. So that piece of self knowledge, you have to know who you are and then positive feelings about yourself. So this would be like the self evaluation, self esteem, self worth having positive feelings about yourself, feeling comfortable with who you are, feeling like you can be authentic. But then the third piece is the real clincher. It's that you can maintain those other two. You can maintain your identity, your self knowledge, and you can maintain positive feelings about yourself even when other people pressure it. So if somebody doesn't give me the validation that I want or somebody disapproves of something I'm doing, it doesn't throw me, it doesn't destroy how I feel about myself. It doesn't make me second guess what I know about myself. So I'm comfortable enough with who I am that I can withstand that type of invalidation. I don't need constant reassurance and approval from somebody else in order to feel good about myself.[00:06:47 - 00:06:54]
That's great. I know your focus is on women, but do men struggle with this also?[00:06:55 - 00:07:18]
Oh, yeah. Yeah. This is like rampant in our world. Anytime we're doing anything, like comparison or thinking about what other people want from us. People pleasing, perfectionism, so many things, imposter syndrome. All of these are weak sense of self instead of a strong sense of self. With social media and with everything else, we're just tied to what other people think of us and it just weakens how we see ourselves. So definitely a problem for both men and women.[00:07:18 - 00:07:22]
What percentage of people have a good sense of self?[00:07:22 - 00:07:38]
So my dissertation research, which I know you said we'll talk about a little bit more, but it wasn't exactly sense of self that I was measuring or looking at, but it was related. 90% of people were weak on this. So most of us. There were very few people who were really thriving on this.[00:07:39 - 00:07:43]
I don't know if you've heard of the book Insight by Tasha Urich.[00:07:43 - 00:07:44]
No, I haven't.[00:07:44 - 00:07:54]
She talks a lot about internal, external self awareness. And I think, though those numbers are pretty close, it's pretty much everywhere.[00:07:54 - 00:07:55]
Yeah.[00:07:55 - 00:07:56]
Yeah.[00:07:56 - 00:08:03]
Most of us have a lot of room for improvement with this. And you're right, social media probably has made it even more confusing.[00:08:03 - 00:08:04]
Yeah.[00:08:04 - 00:08:14]
So what then? Does someone look like or a marriage even look like that one or Both partners have a strong sense of self.[00:08:15 - 00:08:45]
If they have a strong sense of self, they're going to be able to have a lot more intimacy and connection, like genuine connection, which is what we all really want in our marriage. Right. Like, I'm going to be able to really be my authentic self. I'm not going to have these codependent patterns where I'm like, we're playing off each other, where we're trying to control each other or manipulate each other's moods. Things that we are probably all doing that we don't necessarily always realize that we're doing those things can really limit the connection that we actually feel with each other.[00:08:47 - 00:08:52]
What are some of the most common ways that you see evidence of a poor sense of self?[00:08:53 - 00:08:56]
Do you want that specific to marriage or just in general?[00:08:56 - 00:09:01]
Both. Because, I mean, you can start with the individual and then let's move into marriage.[00:09:01 - 00:10:14]
Yeah, on an individual basis. Some of the things that I just said, anytime that we're putting our sense of self worth or our sense of self knowledge in the hands of an outside source, it's a weak sense of self. So like I said, if we're engaging in comparison, which we're all doing all day, every day, research actually shows that we're doing it almost constantly. We're measuring ourselves by other people. But that's making an outside source dictate how I feel about myself. And that just makes me very fragile. It makes my sense of self worth very fragile because it's dictated by a source that I can't control. I really like the term reflected sense of self. I think that can really give you some clarity to what the opposite of a strong sense of self is. So anytime I'm trying to see myself how I think other people see me, that would be a weak or reflected sense of self. So I like to use the example sometimes, like, I love to go to Zumba, and I'll just go. And I dance and I have a good time and it doesn't matter. But if I start to think about somebody watching me or if I start to watch myself, I usually mess up. Like, I trip. I just make mistakes in the dancing because I've just removed myself from my own experience. And now I'm watching myself. I'm having that reflected sense of self. And it's. There's a disconnect when that happens.[00:10:15 - 00:10:58]
So reflected sense of self. I guess I can think of a lot of examples. Like in a marriage, maybe the wife doesn't want to punish their child a certain way, but she does because the husband expects it, and she doesn't want to look bad. I mean, there's a lot of examples of that out there, and especially I think with social media now, it's so rampant, and it's like, how do we put a lid on it? Because we do want to please others. Right. We want to please our spouse, we want to please our boss, we want to please our children. How do we do do that? In a way, I guess that's healthy, you know?[00:10:59 - 00:11:49]
Yeah. I. I think that the key piece is autonomy. So autonomy is like my favorite word. A lot of times people think of it as isolation or independence or separateness, but I really think autonomy means I have a sense of ownership of myself. I'm able to make choices for myself. I have a sense of agency. And I think if you put that in the context of the things that you were just talking about, like, yeah, I want to please my spouse, but I want to do it in ways that I'm choosing, not what society is telling me I'm supposed to do as a good wife, or I want to please my boss or my kids or things. But I have to have ownership in that. I have to be doing it in a way that feels genuine to me. I have to have that autonomy piece in order for that to not become something where I'm seeking validation for what I'm doing, which is a lot more toxic in the relationship then.[00:11:49 - 00:11:51]
Yeah. And it seems to come more naturally.[00:11:52 - 00:11:53]
Like, yeah, oh, for sure.[00:11:53 - 00:11:59]
It's very natural to do something and want this external validation.[00:11:59 - 00:12:04]
Yeah. We're wired to do that in this day and age. We really are.[00:12:05 - 00:12:28]
So therein, I guess, lies the real work of being able to change ourselves, really sit with ourselves and think about being intentional about who we are. I mean, I love everything she's saying, really. Kind of. She's just saying it in different words. But it really is fitting in very nicely with. With the four cornerstones.[00:12:28 - 00:12:29]
Exactly.[00:12:29 - 00:12:30]
You got to know who you are.[00:12:30 - 00:12:31]
Yeah.[00:12:31 - 00:12:51]
Right. I mean, at least partially, because I don't know if we actually ever get to know who we are perfectly because, you know, I know we're humans, we're changing, we're aging. Things change over time. And so I don't know if I can expect to know myself 100% all the time.[00:12:51 - 00:12:51]
Right.[00:12:52 - 00:13:02]
But if I can get most of the way there, then, like, you're saying this is a really strong platform in which to build a strong sense of self.[00:13:03 - 00:13:24]
Yeah. And I don't think you have to know everything about yourself. The Beauty of a strong sense of self is that I don't need validation from other people. Like, if I realize that, oh, I was wrong about something that I've always believed or something like that, that's not going to rock my world. I'm just going to say, oh, I'm learning about myself and I can continue to grow and be better. And that's exciting. Instead of threatening. Why?[00:13:24 - 00:13:52]
Why can't we do what you just said? No, I'm serious. I talk to people all day long in my office. I'm also an employer. And we're always constantly surrounded by different people from different perspectives. And they all seem to have this issue where they have a hard time accepting criticism. And I don't know, it's.[00:13:52 - 00:13:53]
And it's not just they. It's us, too.[00:13:53 - 00:13:55]
Well, it's me, too. Let's be honest.[00:13:55 - 00:14:46]
Yeah, me. I think that there is a reason behind that. I think that we want connection with other people so very badly. Like, we all crave that sense of belonging, that we matter to somebody, that they see us as good, that they love us, that they accept us like we're born that way. Babies seek that connection right away. And so we want that so much that sometimes we do things that we think are going to bring that connection. We try to. You know, I'm going to do something that I think my husband. Husband is going to love that I did so that he will love and approve of me. But it might not be the genuine thing that I would have chosen myself, But I'm doing it so that I can earn that love and approval from the other people. So I think that's the motivation behind it. And we just get so off track as we're doing it. We start to lose ourselves more and more and be so tied up in other people's approval and reassurance that we don't even totally remember who we are anymore.[00:14:46 - 00:15:25]
I love the word you used right there. Motivation. And so if that's the case, is it helpful then when we're making a decision that we're wondering, is this a reflected sense of self or a strong sense of self here to ask, what is my motivation? Yes, absolutely. It's a very simple question. Right. That allows us to explore, that helps us take the time, even if it's a few seconds, to look for, am I doing this for exchange on an exchange principle of I'm expecting something back for it, or is it out of love that I'm doing this? Is it using my own agency?[00:15:25 - 00:15:37]
Yeah, I just think you might have to dig a little too, though, because sometimes we're doing it with motivations that we're not recognizing. We're not recognizing. I'm doing this so that somebody will like me or approve of me or.[00:15:37 - 00:15:39]
So give me an example.[00:15:40 - 00:16:33]
I would say, for example, I was in a relationship once. It was a friendship, and I found myself often and doing things to earn that person's approval. This person was. I was in trouble a lot. If I did anything wrong, I was in trouble. And I would get the cold shoulder or I would get a lecture or things like that. And so I would go out of my way to not cross those lines and not be in trouble. I would even go out of my way to prove that I was a good friend. You know, stop by with cookies, stop by with a treat text to see how things are going. Do a lot of those things. And I felt like I was being very selfless when I was doing that. And I realized now that I was actually being quite selfish when I was doing that, because my motivation was that I wanted to feel good about myself. I wanted to feel like I wasn't in trouble. I wanted to prove that I was a good friend. So it wasn't as selfless as I thought it was.[00:16:34 - 00:16:42]
So how long did it take you to get from point A to point B in your mind, from selfless to selfish? How long did it take?[00:16:42 - 00:16:52]
Years. The friendship ended. And it even still took me years into my graduate program to like, really grasp what had been going on in that situation.[00:16:53 - 00:16:57]
So how can people expedite that process to make change?[00:16:57 - 00:17:36]
I think what you said is just really stopping and looking at what is my motivation? I like to use the phrase, like, you can't fix what you can't see. So it's actually really, really beneficial if you can start to look four ways, that you're using a reflected sense of self, that you're looking for validation from other people, that you're letting other people dictate what you do with yourself. It feels kind of painful to see it, but it's also like, give yourself a gold star, because you can't change it if you don't see it. So start to look for those things, and then when you see them, you can say, okay, what would this look like if I did it differently? What would it look like if I was doing it in a way that felt genuine to me?[00:17:37 - 00:17:45]
So are there any times when doing something for someone else as a self sacrifice is okay?[00:17:46 - 00:18:06]
Of course. Self sacrifice is a critical part of relationships. Right. I just Think it's that autonomy piece that has to be there. You just have to be doing it because it's something that you genuinely want to do, not because it's a should or a supposed to or that you're feeling pressured into doing when you do it because you think you are supposed to. Ultimately resentment builds up over time.[00:18:06 - 00:18:25]
Right? I mean, I guess my question is that are there any times where you, you do something even though you don't want to do it? I mean, is that okay? If you truly don't want to do it in your mind and you're not there yet, do you still do it?[00:18:25 - 00:18:46]
I think that you could, but I think that it still would be a choice. I might say, like, I really don't want to do this thing for my husband, but I know that it's beneficial to our marriage when I do. And I'm going to choose that because. So I'm taking it a step back. Like, maybe I'm not choosing the action, but I'm choosing how I'm showing up.[00:18:46 - 00:18:47]
Okay, I love that.[00:18:47 - 00:19:06]
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I like that because I mean, this happens every day, all the time. And I think in any relationship we're going to be stuck with doing things that I really don't want to do. But I like how you said that. Just like, okay, just take a moment, make that shift in my head and then move on.[00:19:06 - 00:19:07]
Yeah.[00:19:07 - 00:19:44]
So in my dissertation I was looking at women who were in relationships that were pretty rocky at some point. And when they started getting a little rocky, they knew something was wrong. They couldn't really peg what it was, so they started self silencing to balance the relationship. I noticed today that's also what your dissertation was on. So I think you have probably a more global look at why, especially women, self silence, but why either of us would self silence and how that impacts the marriage relationship.[00:19:44 - 00:20:45]
Yeah. Basically what we've been talking about is self silencing. So if I'm super worried about how I appear to other people, if I'm really needing validation from outside sources, then I'm going to start doing a couple of things. One of those is not speaking up for what I want or what I need in a relationship, kind of holding my tongue so that I don't rock the boat. And I don't mean like compromise, like compromise is always a good thing. But if I'm always stifling myself kind of like I just said in the friendship, if I'm worried that I'm going to cross a line so I'M constantly just downplaying myself, then that would be self silencing. And then the other piece that I might start to do we've also talked about, and that is sacrificing for another person, but not because I want to, but because I think I have to in order to earn love and approval. And the outcome of that is almost inevitably just awful things. Resentment and overwhelm and depression and anxiety and even like physical health challenges and things can come from this self silencing.[00:20:46 - 00:21:05]
What might I do that would cause him to self silence? Or what might he do that would cause me to self silence? Are there patterns of behavior by our spouse that make us pull back like that? Or is it more maybe cultural narratives that make us think that we shouldn't have an opinion on some things?[00:21:05 - 00:21:53]
Yeah, several thoughts on that. For one, yes, you were right. Men and women both self silence. Originally, self silencing theory was created with women in mind because the therapist who first conceptualized self silencing was trying to account for why women's levels of depression were so much higher than men's. And she thought that it was because of these socialized expectations on what women are expected to be like, especially that sacrificing of who they are. Since then, research is showing that self silencing happens in men too and is also associated with depression, sometimes even at higher rates. But it's unclear. It seems like nobody's really quite gotten down to the bottom of this in research yet. But it seems like women are probably doing it for the ways that we've talked about. Like I'm expected to sacrifice for others. That's just part of being a woman.[00:21:53 - 00:22:06]
To put my husband through school or to care for my children and not have a career, or to have a career and children and not be upset about the fact that I still have to care for the household.[00:22:06 - 00:23:18]
Yeah. Or even have to be sweet and not speak up. You know, women aren't taught to share their own opinions always. They feel too assertive or pushy when they do things like that. Yeah, but for men it seems like it's also maybe tied to gendered norms, but more like I'm not going to show emotion, I'm not going to engage in a difficult conversation. I'm going to just kind of cut off and walk away when we're having conflict, things like that. So it's happening for men too, but in different ways. And nobody's fully understood that yet. But I think that when that shows up in a relationship, self silencing and sense of Self are opposites of each other. Right. So if one or the other of us doesn't have a strong sense of self, typically we have about the same level of sense of self as our partner. So if I see that my partner doesn't have a super strong sense of self, it may be true that I don't either. And so while like you said, are there things I could be doing that are causing him to self silence and vice versa, I think yes. But it's also like we each individually have to work through it for ourselves. If we're trying to control each other, if we're causing the problems for each other. I realize that sometimes that can like abuse and things like that would be an extreme end where you, you don't need.[00:23:18 - 00:23:34]
Yeah, I know what you're saying. Like it's all comes back to ourselves. How am I doing? Right. And that's really where it begins. I can't think about my spouse silencing me until I start thinking about my, what I do.[00:23:34 - 00:23:36]
Why am I silencing myself or if.[00:23:36 - 00:23:38]
I'm doing it to my spouse.[00:23:39 - 00:23:47]
Is this the same in some ways? Is emotional cut off in self differentiation theory or is it just a twist?[00:23:47 - 00:24:10]
They're actually. Yeah, there actually is some research that shows that for men it is like emotional cut off or like avoidant attachment. That's another thing people might be familiar with. It's that I'm, I'm gonna just walk away from the difficult situation. I'm going to try to not engage in it. Interestingly, for women, self silencing is more like anxious attachment. So I'm going to get clingy, I'm going to try to draw him in, I'm going to try to have him reassure me, that kind of thing.[00:24:10 - 00:24:17]
Fascinating. So what are the long term impacts on a relationship of self silencing?[00:24:18 - 00:25:00]
Just a lot of disconnection. Right. Like the other theory behind self silencing that the therapist was coming up with was simply that we're not going to have intimacy. If you're self silencing, you're not being authentic. So how can the other person really know you at a deep level if you're not showing up with intimacy within a willingness to show them who you are, who are they even connecting with then? And I also think that the resentment and the mental health challenges and things like that that can come from it are also going to cause disconnection in the relationship. If I'm resenting my spouse because I feel like I'm overburdened and I'm taking on too much and I'm stretched thin. I'm not going to want to have connection. Then I'm just going to feel frustrated.[00:25:01 - 00:25:16]
Hmm, that's really good. What are some antidotes to that? You said having a stronger sense of self. Do you have some practical things that you suggest to start working on?[00:25:16 - 00:26:57]
Yeah, again, I always take it back to that autonomy piece because I really love it. But we have two competing needs. This is where my dissertation research was. We have two competing needs. We, we have a need to belong to other people that we've talked about that, like that desire for relationships and connection and belonging. And we have that desire for autonomy, that ownership of ourselves. And for most of us, we're probably leaning in too heavily on one or the other of those things. The way we've been talking is leaning too heavily into the belonging and giving up our autonomy. It can happen the other way too though. For sure, you can have autonomy and try to get rid of the relationships. But what I found in my dissertation research is that you can't actually, like, if you think of this as like a scale, you can't lean heavily and have the belonging piece be just really strong. And the autonomy, like, oh, I'm not going to worry about that. I'm just going to really, really love and care for the people in my life and sacrifice myself endlessly and then I'll have great relationships. It doesn't actually work that way. Those two things go hand in hand. So if your autonomy is low, your belonging is also low and vice versa. If your belonging is low, your autonomy is low. We need both of those things together. So you kind of have to do a self evaluation and say, which of these two things am I forsaking in favor of the other? And what do I need to do to rebalance that? Now what we've been talking about with the self silencing would be I need to reclaim some of my autonomy. I need to be willing to do things for myself, to develop myself, to speak up for myself, you know, not just hold my tongue to keep the peace. I need to care enough about myself to make my own choices, things like that. I need to reclaim that autonomy.[00:26:58 - 00:27:13]
That's good codependency. I know you've mentioned that a little bit. It's kind of a buzzword. Or it has been. Will you explain to our listeners who might not understand what that is, what it is and how it plays out long term?[00:27:13 - 00:27:44]
Yeah, it's very, very related to self silencing. In fact, those two things went Hand in hand. In my research also, I would say codependency is not being able to function without somebody else providing you with that sense of identity that you guys talk about, without somebody providing you with that reassurance and approval that you need. You rely on somebody else to make you feel good about who you are. So we've essentially been talking about all of that this whole time. But we hear codependency sometimes, and we think alcoholics or something.[00:27:44 - 00:27:45]
Yeah, right.[00:27:45 - 00:27:48]
Actually, probably happening in almost all of our marriages, too.[00:27:49 - 00:27:56]
So is it usually the husband or the wife that has the codependency?[00:27:56 - 00:28:05]
I mean, you can't be codependent without the other person engaging in the process. Right. If I step out of the codependency, it breaks. There is no more codependency.[00:28:05 - 00:28:14]
I mean, as far as far as who suffers from that, who is the codependent one in the relationship typically, I.[00:28:14 - 00:28:16]
Really think it goes hand in hand.[00:28:16 - 00:28:21]
So you're saying they're both. Both spouses are codependent on each other?[00:28:21 - 00:28:21]
Yeah.[00:28:21 - 00:28:22]
Oh, wow.[00:28:22 - 00:28:23]
Yeah. You're cycling through this.[00:28:23 - 00:28:25]
That is a new thought.[00:28:27 - 00:28:56]
Yeah. Like, I think that if you think your spouse is codependent, you need to take a look at yourself. And if you want to break a codependent marriage, like, break the codependency, you have to look at yourself. As soon as you disengage from the codependency, it's no longer codependent. I mean, the other person might still, like, old habits die hard. Right. I, like Dr. David Schnarsh, calls it emotional gridlock, where you're just so locked into each other and you can't. And you have these bad habits and you can't, like, separate yourself.[00:28:57 - 00:29:16]
So, I mean, now that I think about it, it's codependent. Right. It makes sense. I just. I've never thought of it like that, but I thought it was just one person who was totally giving themselves up for the other. And. But in reality, it's CO2. You.[00:29:16 - 00:29:18]
You desire them to give up themselves.[00:29:19 - 00:29:59]
Yeah. I was going to say one person is probably being controlling or critical or judgmental. I think sometimes we think of this as, like, the man is the controlling one and the woman is the. What you're saying is the codependent, but, like, the. Oh, okay, I'll just do what I'm supposed to. But I absolutely think it can go the other way for me. I have to work on myself being. I'm more the critical one or the one that's like, why are you doing it that way or things like that. And then he might be like, oh, I want to meet her approval. And so I'm going to try to do it the way that I think she wants to do it. And then I get frustrated that he's trying to figure out what I want instead of just asking what I want or doing it his way. And then we just cycle through this. Right?[00:29:59 - 00:31:02]
We talk about this. We talk about it all the time. And I think if you keep taking different perspectives, shed different lights on different, you know, kind of the same general theme, I think eventually people start learning. But, I mean, you can do the exact same thing in your marriage. Exactly. And have two totally different outcomes based on what you're talking about. And it's so important. It's so vitally important. And I don't think. I think we're all on this journey to learn together about how to do it. How do I do the exact same thing for my wife that she wants me to do? Like, let's say, buy a house. I remember that I didn't want to buy a house. I liked the house we're in. And I was somewhat resentful that all she wanted to do was look at houses and buy a house.[00:31:03 - 00:31:06]
And resistant. Resentful and resistant.[00:31:06 - 00:31:43]
And one day I had to sit with myself, and it just clicked in my head. It's like this switch, like you flip on and off a switch. It's like, if you really want to connect with your wife, you need to see what's important to her, and then you need to make that important to yourself. And so from that day, that moment, actually, I'm like, I want to buy a house. And, you know, it was.[00:31:43 - 00:31:45]
The motivation came from within.[00:31:47 - 00:32:13]
But I could have bought a house and resented the whole thing and had just resentments that carried on for years or whatever, which I'm sure does a lot. But it's not in what we do. Well, it is what and what we do. Let's be honest. We do. Do. Do we have to do. But if we don't do it for reasons that we want to do. Right.[00:32:13 - 00:32:23]
Well. And in that specific case, and I think most other cases, making that shift also comes from being curious. Why is it?[00:32:23 - 00:32:27]
Well, and it's important. I like curiosity because it's very benign.[00:32:28 - 00:32:28]
Right.[00:32:28 - 00:32:35]
It's not. Why do you want to do that? Huh? What's. What's your angle? It's. No, like, what. What. What's up? I really want to know.[00:32:35 - 00:32:36]
I'm curious.[00:32:36 - 00:32:37]
Yeah.[00:32:37 - 00:32:43]
What is it that's driving this how important is this to you? What's underlying it?[00:32:43 - 00:32:59]
So, and, and I think too, like you were saying, it goes back to identity. Like, if you don't know kind of who you are, how on earth are you going to know how to make that switch in your head about what's important to you if you don't know who you are?[00:32:59 - 00:33:01]
Yeah, you've got to know that.[00:33:01 - 00:33:15]
So I, I really like that your approach is, is really cool. Like I said, there's a lot of overlay with other things that we talk about. Hopefully get people to the right answer that clicks for them.[00:33:15 - 00:33:16]
Yeah.[00:33:16 - 00:33:16]
So.[00:33:17 - 00:33:21]
And I like what you said there, though. You said, you know, because you could have bought that house either way.[00:33:21 - 00:33:22]
Yes.[00:33:22 - 00:33:25]
To an outside observer, it would have looked the same, you guys.[00:33:25 - 00:33:25]
Exactly.[00:33:25 - 00:33:38]
But the feelings that you have inside are entirely different. And the connection that you feel or don't feel with your spouse then becomes entirely different. You know, you're doing it in the resentful way or in the. No, I want to choose this also.[00:33:39 - 00:33:42]
Motivation. What's my motivation?[00:33:42 - 00:33:47]
And the only way you're going to know how you're motivated is to know who. Who the heck am I?[00:33:48 - 00:34:00]
Who am I? Yep. Yep. So are there some practical tips that you can share with our listeners that will give them the tools they need to at least get started on this?[00:34:00 - 00:36:14]
Yeah, I feel like this is a tricky thing to get started on. It's very foreign to us to stop to try to detach ourselves from the outcomes that we've usually attached ourselves to. We all have outcomes that we attach ourselves to. Like, oh, I feel good about myself because I was productive today, or I feel good about myself because I won an award, or I feel good about myself because of what I weigh, or we all have our things. And I remember when my husband started working on this, he was like, I feel completely unhinged. I feel like a ship that's like lost its anchor and I'm just floating and I don't know what to do because this is always how I valued myself. So I always want to acknowledge that this is not an easy process, but also that, like, every baby step you make forward counts for something. And if you're strengthening something you like, if you think of strengthening your muscles, you do it little by little. You don't go to the gym one day and start curling the 50 pound weights. You go to the gym and you start with the fives or the tens or wherever you're at. So I think you start where you're at. And as Much as this doesn't sound like an answer, it is. You have to look for, where am I doing this? Where am I looking for validation from other people? It's probably easier to see it on an individual level first than it is in your marriage. I feel like the marriage stuff gets deep. It's good to look for it there. But if that part feels challenging, start by looking at it in just your basic day to day life. Like I said, like, oh, I'm letting how much I got done on my to do list dictate how I feel about myself. Hmm. How could I change that? How could I. How could I feel good about myself regardless of that? Or I'm letting what the scale told me this morning dictate how I feel about myself. How can I detach my sense of worth from that? And you just, you're not going to do it tomorrow like that. That's been ingrained in you for a while. But you can start to notice it. And as you start to notice it, you can start to change your thinking patterns around it and start to just think about that motivation that we keep talking about. What is my motivation for the things that I'm doing and how can I shift that into the strong sense of self? How can I stop having that reflected sense of self and instead be stronger and disengage from the codependency that I might have going on and just take those baby steps forward? It's tricky, but every baby step forward adds up to a lot over time.[00:36:15 - 00:36:16]
That's really cool.[00:36:16 - 00:36:17]
That's great advice.[00:36:17 - 00:36:28]
Yeah, that is. So if there are people who really want to dive more into how this impacts motherhood and those other relationships, where can they find you?[00:36:28 - 00:36:47]
I've got a website, Amber Price.com and I've got articles there and I've got programs and courses and things, but. And I've also just launched a podcast of my own that's called the Relatable Podcast, but it's the word relate, hyphen able. So it's about making you more able to relate to the people in your life.[00:36:47 - 00:36:51]
Okay, so amberaprice.com right?[00:36:51 - 00:36:51]
Yep.[00:36:51 - 00:36:57]
All right, that's great. And I know you have some stuff on social media as well, so.[00:36:57 - 00:37:00]
Yeah. Dr. Amber A. Price on Instagram. Yep.[00:37:00 - 00:37:09]
Great. Well, we really, really appreciate you being here with us. This is such an important topic. Thank you so much for being here with us today.[00:37:09 - 00:37:11]
Thanks for having me. I love the work you're doing, too.[00:37:12 - 00:37:18]
So we're, we're really grateful for your research and for the the content that you're developing right now.[00:37:18 - 00:37:19]
Thank you.[00:37:19 - 00:37:20]
All right, that's a wrap.[00:37:21 - 00:37:23]
That's a wrap until next week.[00:37:23 - 00:37:31]
And remember, the intelligent spouse knows that to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in themselves.[00:37:32 - 00:38:05]
Thank you all for tuning into Marriage IQ. We hope today's episode has sparked some valuable insights. Remember, the conversation doesn't end here. If you are interested in more information on this topic or to learn more about what we do, check out our website, drheidihastings.com and if you get the chance, we'd love to have you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening. Keep exploring and we'll catch you next time on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
