Episode 33. Money Matters Beyond Budgets: Fostering Financial Intimacy with Your Spouse
Financial intimacy is a crucial aspect of a thriving marriage, yet it remains an often overlooked dimension of relationship health. In this episode of Marriage IQ, we build upon last week’s episode about finances to explore the profound impact of financial communication on marital satisfaction and stability.
We delve into the concept of financial intimacy, which extends beyond mere budgeting to encompass a deep, open, and trusting connection between partners regarding their financial lives. This includes creating a shared vision for the future, discussing values and goals related to money, complete honesty and integrity, and ensuring both partners feel heard and respected in financial matters.
We also examine how financial intimacy aligns with our four cornerstones of a thriving marriage: identity, intentionality, insight, and integrity. Learn how to apply these principles to your financial relationship and create a stronger, more unified approach to money management.
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Hey, everybody. Dr. Hastings here. This is part two of our episode on finances. If you haven't listened to last week's episode yet, we highly encourage that you listen to that before listening to this one. Hope you enjoy it.[00:00:17 - 00:00:23]
Welcome to Marriage iQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse.[00:00:24 - 00:00:26]
I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings.[00:00:26 - 00:00:28]
And I'm Dr. Scott Hastings.[00:00:28 - 00:01:02]
We are two doctors, two researchers, two spouses, two lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose. To transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun. As we're talking about lower satisfaction in marriage having to do with financial issues, it's not actually money that's causing the problem in marriage. It's conflict over money.[00:01:03 - 00:01:04]
Okay?[00:01:04 - 00:01:33]
Like we said, we come with different perceptions about money. It's when we argue about them rather than being able to talk through some of those things. So one study showed that those, and this is by Du et al in 2012, showed that those who disagree about finance is almost daily were 69% more likely to divorce than those who almost never fought about finances or rarely fought about finances. So I think that's kind of interesting.[00:01:34 - 00:01:58]
That is I. That is an interesting study. Again, it's. Are they fighting because they're. That's what their personality is and money just happens to be in the way, or is that the root cause? And like I said, it can be a little bit of both. But I think financial conflict, too, just for anyone, can be caused by economic pressures. Inflation.[00:01:58 - 00:01:59]
Yes.[00:01:59 - 00:02:12]
Especially now we got this inflation going on, right? Income levels and commitment and respect are deeper relationship problems that often show up as financial conflict.[00:02:12 - 00:02:13]
That's a good point.[00:02:13 - 00:02:48]
So kind of getting back to the basics here. I looked at this Forbes advisor. They asked a thousand people who are either divorced or going through a divorce why they got married in the first place. Pew Research, they're a big research group that does a lot of surveys on the American life. They asked the same question, why they got married to people who are still married. Do you think the number one reason for getting married matched between the Forbes study and the Pew study?[00:02:48 - 00:02:53]
So those who were divorced and those who were either divorced or married.[00:02:53 - 00:03:27]
So the first one is only divorced people who are going through a divorce. That was Forbes. The second one was married people who are currently married. Okay, that was PewDiePie. So it was not at all the same. If you guessed the same, you'd be wrong. The number one reason that the people who are now divorced got married in the first place was for financial security. 42%. Love came in third at 36%.[00:03:28 - 00:03:29]
Wonder why they're divorced.[00:03:30 - 00:03:43]
The number one reason for getting married in the Pew study, these are the ones who are married, not divorced was love at 88% while financial security was not even second, third, fourth or fifth.[00:03:43 - 00:03:44]
Oh, really?[00:03:45 - 00:03:50]
Financial security was sixth on the list at 28%.[00:03:51 - 00:04:01]
So do you think that just helps them weather those financial troubles better than if their motivation is primarily for financial reasons?[00:04:01 - 00:04:15]
Financial security, either Forbes or Pew or both are really wrong. Or maybe getting married for mainly financial security is probably not the best motivation.[00:04:15 - 00:04:17]
I would agree with that as a.[00:04:17 - 00:04:35]
Divorce rate for those stating they were getting married for financial security are more likely to get divorced. The conclusion, get married for love and not for money, please. But use money as a tool to increase your love and your intimacy.[00:04:35 - 00:04:44]
Oh, I like that idea. Speaking of intimacy, tell me, have you ever heard of financial intimacy?[00:04:44 - 00:04:49]
Oh yeah, tell me more.[00:04:49 - 00:05:23]
It's funny. Well, financial intimacy is connecting deeply through issues about finances. So creating a deep, open, trusting connection with your partner that is more than just budgeting or managing expenses together. It involves creating a shared vision for your future. Sharing thoughts, feelings, values and goals around money. And making sure that both partners feel, feel heard and respected in the financial aspect of the relationship.[00:05:23 - 00:05:25]
That sounds a whole lot like our marriage retreat.[00:05:26 - 00:05:29]
It does. Have you ever thought of that portion of our marriage retreat?[00:05:29 - 00:05:40]
Not in those words. I'm glad you're bringing that up. Yes, but I. Yes, I mean, that does sound a lot like what would be talked about in a marriage retreat. Right. In that portion, anyway.[00:05:40 - 00:05:50]
Well, and when we have that shared vision that comes from that safe place to talk about those things, things, we're more likely to keep our budget on a weekly basis.[00:05:51 - 00:05:51]
Right.[00:05:51 - 00:05:53]
Because we know what it is that we're working for.[00:05:53 - 00:05:55]
Well. And we're both on the same page.[00:05:55 - 00:06:12]
Right. So with financial intimacy in practical terms, that's going to look like openly discussing topics about employment or potential employment. I have this job offer. Let's talk about this. And yeah, look at financially how that's.[00:06:12 - 00:06:14]
Going to impact pros and the cons.[00:06:14 - 00:06:39]
Right. Looking at our incomes, do we need to change things up with a job? Maybe do we need to take on something else? We're looking at and talking with respect and with openness about our spending habits without feeling guilt or shame, but talking openly about, can we make some changes here? We're able to talk about debt, financial goals and savings plans in a safe and non contentious way.[00:06:39 - 00:06:57]
It can be. I think, I think it's easy to say that, but I think that talking about financial things, especially personal financial choices, can be just as vulnerable as talking about anything else. The intimate sexual intimacy.[00:06:57 - 00:06:57]
Right.[00:06:57 - 00:07:02]
It can be just as vulnerable.[00:07:02 - 00:07:09]
And as we shared with our listeners, it took us several years to keep working through things to make some changes.[00:07:09 - 00:07:10]
Yeah.[00:07:10 - 00:08:01]
Financial intimacy is also, like we talked about, understanding each other's financial background beliefs and emotions and triggers, I might even add, surrounding money. You know what some of my financial triggers are. So we tread lightly when it comes to that. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it. It just means I need to go, oh, yeah, I remember. This is why I'm having this emotion. Or you may say, I don't understand what's this about? And we can talk that through. So, for instance, for our listeners, maybe one of them grew up like me, in a family that was more concerned and worried about finances. And a partner like you would have had a more relaxed approach to money. And we need to understand our different backgrounds with that and how we come to the table and then be open and respectful of that.[00:08:02 - 00:08:03]
Indeed.[00:08:03 - 00:08:16]
And I think most of all, it's very important to understand that financial intimacy involves recognizing and navigating these differences between us with empathy without blame.[00:08:16 - 00:08:24]
So are you saying we're approaching this financial. Maybe like almost like a landmine.[00:08:24 - 00:08:36]
Yeah. When we explain to each other. I think this is why I'm reacting this way. Instead of you just saying, get over it or grow up your big girl panties or something.[00:08:36 - 00:08:37]
Just, I don't wear panties.[00:08:37 - 00:08:51]
No, you saying that to me, saying, oh, I didn't understand that. Thank you for sharing that with me. That had to be really hard or I can see how that would be impacting you now in that way.[00:08:51 - 00:09:32]
I think when it comes to this, empathy and financial situations between spouses is really. It's. You're sitting in it with your spouse. Sympathy is like, you poor thing, let me help you up. Empathy is. No, I'm getting down with you. We're going to sit together with it. And that is, I think, where you start. I think that I would have been forever opposed to spending a lot of money on helping other people if I didn't just force myself into, like, I have to think, like, she thinks I have to sit in it with her.[00:09:32 - 00:09:34]
That's empathy.[00:09:34 - 00:09:49]
And then it just switched like a light bulb. And ever since then, it's been. It's been really good. I think we've been largely on the same page when it comes to charity and giving to others.[00:09:49 - 00:10:10]
And you know what that does is builds trust. That level of intimacy over finances builds trust between partners. Indeed, it reduces our conflict. However, with that said, it's vitally important to be completely honest with each other about our spending habits, about our accounts.[00:10:11 - 00:10:11]
Yeah.[00:10:11 - 00:10:25]
About assets, because there is such a thing as financial infidelity. And when you're keeping secrets from your partner about financial related things, then that can destroy all of that trust and be really destructive.[00:10:25 - 00:10:28]
Yeah. That is definitely not financial intimacy, is it?[00:10:28 - 00:11:07]
No. So in essence, no secrets when it comes to money things. Not that I need to tell you every penny I'm spending. We have categories that those things go into in our budget. But if I'm hiding things from you, if I'm trying to save cash, not for your birthday or something like that, but because I'm afraid that you'll get mad at something that I've spent, that's a red flag. Although it could go the other way, where the person who's getting mad is exerting power that they shouldn't be exerting and causing fear for normal spending on something that's really not a big deal.[00:11:08 - 00:11:18]
We all come into this marital union with our own unique past history. We've talked about that earlier, about how our parents handled money, how we handled our own money.[00:11:18 - 00:11:23]
But doesn't that really align well with our cornerstone, one of our four cornerstones?[00:11:23 - 00:11:25]
Identity? Yes.[00:11:25 - 00:11:26]
Yeah.[00:11:26 - 00:12:31]
That is an invitation to think about our own perspective on money, our identity surrounding money. And like you said, you came from a family. The money was very tight. I came from upper middle class. So you had some financial stress, some baggage tied to that, and also from your first marriage. So the crux, the pinnacle of this whole thing, I think really comes to this next one, intentionality. And that's where we just, we have this sit down with ourselves, with our spouse, we talk, we think we have these conversations. What are the most important things for us to spend money on? And create a shared vision, an intentional vision. If you're going to spontaneously spend $300 on going to the state fair next weekend, which we.[00:12:31 - 00:12:33]
Which you would have to spend that much.[00:12:33 - 00:12:37]
Yeah, we went a couple of years ago. We're like, oh, I don't know, about.[00:12:38 - 00:12:43]
$18 for a turkey leg. That was a few years ago. No, it was $20.[00:12:44 - 00:12:49]
So you can do it. We're not saying you can't, if that's.[00:12:49 - 00:12:51]
What'S important to you, if that's important.[00:12:51 - 00:13:12]
But more importantly is if you have that budgeted for, let's say you just make a category in your budget called, I don't know, spontaneous activities or Scott's crazy ideas. Well, I have that one. That's only. I get. I have 100% control over Scott's crazy ideas.[00:13:12 - 00:13:16]
That's right. And I always am the beneficiary of them.[00:13:17 - 00:13:18]
Like 100%.[00:13:20 - 00:13:22]
Almost. Almost.[00:13:23 - 00:13:45]
Yes. I love to spend money from Scott's crazy ideas on my wife. What can I say? But no. If you have a budget category called spontaneous activities, at least when you're going to make that spontaneous Choice and spend $300 to go to the state fair next weekend, then boom, you can look it up, you've got it.[00:13:45 - 00:13:46]
And you don't feel bad about it.[00:13:46 - 00:13:47]
You don't feel bad because it's fun.[00:13:48 - 00:13:49]
About it, because you made that decision.[00:13:49 - 00:14:29]
Together instead of reacting in the moment. Oh, this looks fun. Let's go do it. No budget, no plan, bad idea, not intentional. So a lot of times with some of these budget plans, which we use Monarch, and again, we don't have anything to do with Monarch, just the disclosure. But we use Monarch. They have a way where it just rolls over every month. So if you don't use it one month, it rolls over and then maybe you can spontaneously go to the Taylor Swift concert for a thousand bucks after a year. I don't know. It's not what I would do, but some of my daughters would.[00:14:29 - 00:14:39]
So we've talked about three of our cornerstones so far in terms of finances. That leaves insight. Does insight have anything to do with money?[00:14:39 - 00:14:40]
Absolutely.[00:14:40 - 00:14:42]
All right, let's hear your thoughts on that.[00:14:43 - 00:15:09]
How can I take on my spouse's perspective on this? What am I missing again? I think it goes back to that empathy. Like what am I missing here? What if my spouse isn't crazy about wanting to spend money on whatever he or she. How can I get myself in their shoes and look at what they're seeing?[00:15:09 - 00:15:41]
I think it's also important to be self aware of our spending habits, of our financial plans, of our ability to be open to discussions about it without getting upset. Maybe even to say, maybe I am going a little overboard in my thoughts about money or in the way I spend money. Just having self awareness about our own thoughts and attitudes about money is really good insight as well.[00:15:42 - 00:16:15]
That's a good point. So you're talking about internal self awareness and I'm talking more about external stuff. Well, they were both important part of insight. Thanks. Tasha Urich, her book insight. But I think it is important to recognize. Yeah. Our own internal motivations. Hey, is my Spouse, like, is this really for a good reason? Do I need to really just think with myself and is this true? Is this or can I really manage my money better?[00:16:15 - 00:16:31]
Well, and one of the greatest aha moments I think for you and I with that has been, are my thoughts surrounding money, my personal thoughts or your personal thoughts surrounding money more from an abundant mindset or a scarcity mindset?[00:16:33 - 00:16:33]
I love that.[00:16:33 - 00:16:46]
And we learned when we were in the throes of the most difficult financial situation of our marriage that so much of that stress was created from having a scarcity mindset.[00:16:47 - 00:16:54]
Is that glass half full or half empty instead of looking at all poop colored glasses or rose colored glasses?[00:16:54 - 00:16:54]
Right.[00:16:54 - 00:16:58]
It makes a difference, right? It really does.[00:16:58 - 00:17:17]
Instead of seeing the blessings that we have, the good things that are coming our way, looking at other people, judging ourselves compared to what cars they drive, what houses they live in, and finding that we come up short, that creates a lot of financial stress, I think.[00:17:17 - 00:17:36]
For our spouses out there, the intelligent spouses. If you're doing that right now, we invite you to change and to start right now looking at your life from a point of view of abundance.[00:17:37 - 00:17:49]
And we have to do this all the time. We have to keep reminding. A bad day on the stock market and you come home feeling really stressed out. We have a discussion about, are you.[00:17:49 - 00:17:55]
I will not tell you how much money I lost in the last few days. And it's not bothering me ever, strangely.[00:17:55 - 00:17:58]
Are you having a more abundant mindset that way?[00:17:58 - 00:18:44]
Yes, I am. It's. Look, everything's good. Everything's good. So you talked a little bit before too, about how a partner can cause financial infidelity. That's serious. If you are withholding financial information that your spouse should really be aware of or making purchases, big purchases, it is really, really important to talk about that. If you try to separate that, you're just not going to get to that level of intimacy that you really crave. But you don't know how to get there. Trust me. Talk to your spouse. If you're worried about how they're going to respond. Well, then listen to Ellen Drew's podcast, Ellen Drew's podcast from a few weeks ago.[00:18:44 - 00:18:46]
I think it was episode 26.[00:18:47 - 00:18:53]
And she has some great tips on talking to a spouse, minimizing overreaction.[00:18:53 - 00:19:05]
Well, and our bedrock of integrity, everything that we talk about to do to make these really strong, scintillating, thriving marriages requires integrity from both partners.[00:19:06 - 00:19:08]
And it starts with me, myself and.[00:19:08 - 00:19:10]
I, and rather than pointing not with.[00:19:10 - 00:19:15]
My spouse, not with you, with me. That's where it starts.[00:19:15 - 00:19:19]
Am I having integrity in all that I do with money?[00:19:20 - 00:19:22]
I really like that.[00:19:22 - 00:19:58]
There are a few good news things to wrap up with here towards the end. There's a study by Saxy that shows romantic relationships can really flourish when couples communicate about their finances when they have similar financial values, which can happen through some of the processes that we've talked about. Couples councils. Yeah, marriage retreats. Just having those intimate, open, non contentious. Maybe it's okay if there's some conflict because that just means different points of opinion.[00:19:58 - 00:20:02]
Yeah, conflict is okay where I say.[00:20:02 - 00:20:08]
You'Re wrong, you're bad, your opinion stinks, rather than being able to look at both sides.[00:20:08 - 00:20:29]
And I would say that's probably natural because again, we're humans. We have to deal with that fact. We can't get over that fact. So we may initially think that about our spouse, that, look, your idea is stupid. I don't like it. We let that thought just kind of keep passing by.[00:20:29 - 00:21:24]
And if you say it, repair, say, let me try that again. I just did that today with something. I can't even remember what it was, but I said something and then I said, let me try to rephrase that in a different way. Repair is really important. Saxy had another study that came out this year that said when couples have financial values that are different from each other, forgiveness helped the relationship thrive rather than break down. So maybe they don't see eye to eye on values. But forgiving our imperfections, our humanness, and coming at it, repairing really helps. Here's an interesting study that better sleep habits are connected to better money management. So if you're going to sit down and do a budget or have these deep talks about financial intimacy, make sure you get a good night's sleep first.[00:21:24 - 00:21:25]
Okay.[00:21:25 - 00:21:53]
If we're tired, if we're hungry, if we're cranky, it's probably not a good time to do it. And again, budgeting is related to our sexual relationship as a couple. So communicating about finances and financial stress can negatively impact sexuality. So be aware of when you're having these talks in bed at night, when you're planning on having an intimate moment is probably not the best time for them.[00:21:53 - 00:22:08]
Yeah, I probably wouldn't do it at the same time, but I'm like, oh, honey, let's, let's talk a budget. Can I light the candles while you whip out the budget? That's the spreadsheet.[00:22:08 - 00:22:31]
We recommend setting aside time specifically for that. After you've eaten a meal that's good when you don't have something planned for a little while and maybe even starting with just some affirmations of what you love about each other, things you've noticed that they've done well, because appreciation and gratitude set the stage for being able to discuss things more openly.[00:22:32 - 00:23:01]
So I think just kind of bringing this all together here. We all come together in a marital relationship just with differences with how we view money. And if we can just really, even before we get married, start talking, thinking, sitting down, really being one on one with each other and being open and honest and understanding our own history.[00:23:01 - 00:23:08]
And if you've been married for a long time and you've never talked about these things, this week's a great time to do that.[00:23:08 - 00:24:01]
Yeah. So this week, personally, let's have you just have that meeting with yourself. Think about what is your own personal history, what is your family's approach been to money as far as paying off home quickly, not spending a lot on restaurants or scrimping and saving clothing. Go through the whole thing. Do you have beliefs that you believe are valid or invalid? And for your marriage this week, what are the most important things we want to do together with our money? Like Dave Ramsey said, every dollar has a name on it. That gives you power. That gives us power. We can start making a financial plan.[00:24:01 - 00:24:17]
And, you know, doing that allows us to prioritize the marriage. If we are making categories that allow us to do recreational or eating out, date night, whatever it is, doing things together needs to be part of the budget.[00:24:17 - 00:24:25]
I will tell you, when we were in residency, we had a budget. It was a very small budget, but I felt powerful.[00:24:25 - 00:24:26]
Yeah.[00:24:26 - 00:26:26]
And that's a really great feeling to have. Even though we were one street off from all the big mansions, all the big mansions, all the big, you know, doctors and whatever down the next street. We had a very modest house, and I felt powerful, and that was awesome. I think that any spouse can do that, regardless of what level of income they're at, by giving each dollar a name. And so if you already have a financial plan, let's say you have already talked with your spouse or even maybe even gone to a financial planner. That's great. Now let's refine it. You can always refine. It's like our dance teachers tell us, we can work on this one dance for the rest of your lives, your mortal lives, and we can perfect it. We can keep working on it. And that's the same thing with your marriage. It's the same thing with your financial plan, with everything you work on it, you refine it over time, and sometimes you hit these really big bumps and you wonder, holy cow, did we learn anything? But then you remember the steps that Dr. And Dr. Hastings talked to you about on this podcast? Oh, yeah. The four cornerstones. Okay, now we have something to go back on. Yes, we're good. Let's keep moving. Instead of, oh, my gosh, I don't know if I love you anymore or some crazy thing like that. So if my spouse is really passionate about a certain way, we should spend money, can I take their perspective? Can I really go down to the mat and see what they're seeing and just view what they're viewing? We all have our own perspectives, and we all think they're right.[00:26:26 - 00:26:26]
Yeah.[00:26:29 - 00:26:41]
So how is my spouse's perspective different than mine? And how can I look at it with new, fresh eyes? Thanks for joining us this week.[00:26:41 - 00:26:44]
Thank you so much, everybody. Have a great week.[00:26:46 - 00:26:54]
And remember, the intelligent spouse knows that to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in the marriage themselves.[00:26:55 - 00:27:24]
Thank you all for tuning into Marriage iq. We hope today's episode has sparked some wonderful thoughts and brought you valuable insights. Remember, the conversation doesn't end here. If you get the chance, we'd love to have you leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It really helps us get the word out about Marriage iq. Thanks again for listening. Keep exploring and we'll catch you next time on another exciting episode of Marriage.
