Episode 42. Keeping It Up With the Joneses: Love, Loss, and Intimate Connection
Sexual communication is one of the most challenging—and essential—aspects of a thriving relationship. Yet, many couples struggle to talk openly about their desires, boundaries, and needs. In this episode of Marriage IQ, we’re diving deep into the intricacies of sexual communication with Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones and Dr. Adam Jones, assistant professors of marriage and family therapy at Texas Woman’s University.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
Why intentional communication about sexual desires strengthens relationships
How to navigate difficult conversations about intimacy with confidence
The power of curiosity and openness in exploring sexual topics
Strategies for integrating step-parents into family dynamics
How past trauma shapes sexual communication—and how to heal together
Exclusive Research Insights:
Drs. Rebecca and Adam Jones share their groundbreaking research on sexual communication, revealing:The unique skills required for effective sexual communication
How sharing fantasies enhances sexual and emotional connection
The importance of creating a co-authored sexual narrative as a couple
Beyond research, Rebecca and Adam open up about their personal journey—including Rebecca’s experience as a young widow and their path to building a strong blended family. Their story adds a heartfelt, real-world perspective to their expert insights.
"Everything is sex. Everything from the beginning of the day to the end of the day is a way of communicating about sex." – Dr. Adam Jones
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Welcome to Marriage iQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse.[00:00:08 - 00:00:10]
I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings.[00:00:10 - 00:00:12]
And I'm Dr. Scott Hastings.[00:00:13 - 00:00:30]
We are two doctors, two researchers, two spouses, two lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose. To transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed.[00:00:30 - 00:00:31]
With a little fun.[00:00:35 - 00:00:50]
Welcome, everybody, to another exciting episode of Marriage iQ. We're really excited about today's episode with our guests, Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones and her husband, Adam Jones. Thanks for being with us today.[00:00:50 - 00:00:52]
Yeah. Excited to be here. Thanks.[00:00:52 - 00:00:53]
Thanks for having us.[00:00:53 - 00:01:14]
First, I have to start by saying Rebecca is really important to me because she's been a great mentor through my two graduate programs and also my research partner and my dissertation chair. So Rebecca is an assistant professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women's University.[00:01:14 - 00:01:17]
Yeah, that's right. I'm the program director currently.[00:01:17 - 00:01:31]
And her husband Adam is also an assistant professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women's University. They both are big researchers in topics that really impact families.[00:01:31 - 00:02:29]
I like that you like research. That's kind of what. What we like, too. And I think this is. This is a great time, a moment to pause and just say, okay, there's a reason why research is needed. We could get on here and just talk about stories and talk about things, and stories are good, don't get me wrong. But I think it's really what helps push things along in a formal way. I used in the medical world, it's like, well, this little remedy worked for me. I got better. But that doesn't mean now I can go out and tell everyone else, all my other patients, well, this worked for this guy. It's going to work for you. And so this is why I think on this podcast and with you, we emphasize the importance. Importance of research. So I appreciate both of your efforts in this area, and we're really excited to talk to you today about that.[00:02:29 - 00:03:01]
And today I think we're going to try to fold in both experience and stories along with research. We are especially interested in your research on sexual communication, but also you have a very fascinating story about your backgrounds and how you came together. We've talked a bit on our podcast about family crises and how to navigate those. So I'm going to just invite you to share a little bit, a very unique and interesting path you took and how that led you to Adam.[00:03:01 - 00:04:21]
Yeah, when I was doing my master's in marriage and family therapy, I actually met a different man. Not Adam. His name was Isaac. And we fell in love. And we got married and I stayed where I was living in Lubbock, Texas and created a private practice there and worked part time and started to have children. And I had two children with Isaac. Isaac was actually a cowboy. I didn't know that was a real job. And when he told me he wanted to be a cowboy, I was like, okay. And then he was like, no, it's a real job. And I was like, oh, that is a real job here in Texas. I'm not from Texas. I'm from St. Louis, Missouri, so I'm a city girl. But he was a cowboy and he worked at a feed law and then he worked at a ranch. And so I had a very interesting life. I would say at that point that looks probably pretty different than my life does now. But one day when Isaac had gone to work, he actually got in a fatal car accident, which was obviously shocking at the time. I had a three year old and a one and a half year old. And when the cops came to my door to report that he had been in an accident, I actually thought I was getting sued. I thought I was getting served papers and some client must have died by suicide or something. I mean, that was the only thing that I could think of. Why would two cops be coming to my door in that moment? It was a real crisis for me. So I. I became a widow at 32 years old.[00:04:21 - 00:04:24]
Wow, that's so young.[00:04:24 - 00:04:40]
I'm just thinking, two little kids, you're young, your life, I mean, you don't have a chance to say goodbye or anything. All in once, like one moment, your life has changed forever.[00:04:40 - 00:04:42]
Yes. Yeah, yeah.[00:04:43 - 00:04:46]
That really is a huge identity change for you then.[00:04:46 - 00:05:30]
It really, it really was. And I think at the time. Well, I want to say this too. I came from a family of divorce, so when I was six years old, my parents divorced. And so there was a part of me that when this happened, I did have a thought of like, of course me. Right. I had kind of some catastrophic thinking. So I thought if this would happen to anybody, of course it's my luck that it happens to me. Yes. And I think maybe because of being a therapist and some of the coping skills I had, I actually was not probably even aware that for a year it was traumatic, which sounds crazy.[00:05:30 - 00:05:34]
Did you just kind of shove it down and you just.[00:05:34 - 00:05:34]
No.[00:05:34 - 00:05:36]
Kept going or.[00:05:37 - 00:07:08]
No, I wouldn't say I shoved it down. I just like. So for example, when the cops came, they're like, you probably want to call someone to come and help you make a Phone call. And I remember thinking to myself, why would somebody else call about this? I'm his wife. I'm going to make the phone calls. Right? So that's my first thought. But as I started to make the phone calls, I'm going to cry now. Thinking about it, I could not anticipate the emotion on the other end of the line, the wailing. Like, sometimes people would answer and say, you're joking. Right. Which obviously, like, for someone who's not joking, that's the worst thing they can say at that time. Like, I just. And so I quickly learned that I needed to call someone. And luckily, at the time I was attending church, and the person who was the leader of our congregation, he had actually lost a son at around age 30. And so they knew death. And so I called his wife. And because I knew if anybody knows how to, like, help me navigate this, it's her. And she was absolutely wonderful. She's like, you need to get a babysitter. We need to have somebody like manning the children. And she just really helped me navigate everything. She helped my family get there for the funeral and everything. And so I was so grateful to have that. That couple, like, there for support because I quickly learned that I couldn't just navigate things in the way that I thought was best. I learned pretty quickly that it was going to be much more heavy than I could anticipate.[00:07:09 - 00:07:09]
Wow.[00:07:09 - 00:07:15]
Thank you for sharing that. That's beyond probably all of our listeners.[00:07:15 - 00:07:19]
Understanding and capital T trauma. Right. Yeah.[00:07:20 - 00:07:27]
So how did. How did things change from there? And I haven't heard this full story. I know you've told me parts, but.[00:07:27 - 00:09:09]
Yeah, so I don't think at first I knew it was quite as traumatic as it was. Obviously, I knew he was here one day and suddenly he wasn't. And I do know that the first few weeks were the hardest because, you know, sometimes you fall asleep and you wake up. Every day you wake up, your brain says, he's not here anymore. Like, it has to remind you, right. That your reality has completely shifted. I think a turning point was when I dreamt that he was dead. Like, in my dreams, he was dead. It was like finally my body and mind were aligning with my new reality. There were some things I will say that made his death easier to accept than probably it might be for the next person. One, it's a complete accident. Right. When something unfortunate happens, there's no, like, regret or feelings of, I should have done something different. Right. So I didn't carry that weight. And then also, Isaac had actually often said that he thought he would die early. Not this early, but he did not think he would live a long life. And so he had always shared little premonitions. And even when we were talking, I remember one time at a table with his father, somebody had said something and his father said no. Isaac told me he thought he was going to die before me. So in some ways it felt like our family had, on some level, could have some sort of peace because we knew Isaac had some inkling that his life was not going to be super long. And so I think that allowed us to have a lot of peace. That even though this was much earlier than I think any of us anticipated, there was some sort of sense of peace, of knowing that Isaac knew that his time was short.[00:09:10 - 00:09:11]
That's fascinating.[00:09:11 - 00:09:12]
Wow. Yeah.[00:09:12 - 00:09:17]
How did you move on from that? And at what point did Adam come into the picture?[00:09:17 - 00:10:23]
Yeah. So what's interesting is before Isaac died, I'd actually really felt strongly that I wanted to go back and get a doctorate. But at the time, I had two little kids, I had a private practice, and it felt like adding anything more would be impossible. And I remember, like, just telling myself, like, everything will come in its time. And when he passed away, I knew at that point, like, I'm the breadwinner. And I knew I also did not want to go do full time clinical work while grieving. I knew that would be way too heavy. So then I thought, well, this is the time if I'm going to be the breadwinner, I should go get my doctorate and become a professor, because then I'm going to be on the same schedule as my children. Kind of like the stars kind of aligned for that desire. And so that's when I applied to school. So it was pretty quick. Isaac died in September of 2015. So I had applied and then we kind of met in February at interviews. That's our first interaction with each other. We just kind of became aware of one another during the interview.[00:10:24 - 00:10:39]
That's very quick, making a big life decision. But I love that you'd already thought about it. The idea was there, and then it. The opportunity presented itself to do something that would help you should you never remarry. Right.[00:10:39 - 00:10:40]
Yes.[00:10:40 - 00:10:44]
That's really amazing. So from there, tell us.[00:10:45 - 00:10:47]
Yeah. So you met in February.[00:10:48 - 00:10:49]
Want to start?[00:10:49 - 00:10:51]
Not quite, but sort of.[00:10:51 - 00:11:38]
Well, yeah, we had different experiences during that first encounter. I don't know that we even really interacted very much, but I think we were kind of near each other or around each other at this interview. And I remember sitting at a table and listening to Rebecca speak. And I overheard it, and I just remember looking over and I was actually dating somebody else at the time. And I didn't quite see that going much further. I wasn't really sure how I felt about that relationship. And I just remember looking at Rebecca and being like, yeah, I think that's what I'm looking for. I think I want somebody like that. But I don't know that I was. It was so much directed at her or that I was interested in pursuing her in any particular sense. But there was something just listening to her talk that seemed to get me excited. But she had a different. A little bit of a different experience. You were. You were a little more hesitant.[00:11:39 - 00:12:21]
Well, so obviously it had only been a few months, so I was not like, looking today or anything, but in the interview. So I had. We were at the interview. It was just at the school that I had gone to for my master's, so I was familiar with the culture there. It's a very, I would say, laid back culture. Very welcoming, very warm. And he seemed a little bit more standoffish in some ways, a little conceited. Like, he was really trying to show, like, look how wonderful I am. And I didn't. And so for me, I was like, why is this guy too. Too cool for school? You know, he seems like he's kind of stiff. And he later told me why that was.[00:12:21 - 00:12:40]
I had already been rejected from a. From one other doctoral program. And I think I took that interview very easily and laid back. And so going into this one was very, you know, very serious and interested in putting forward my good parts. But later we got to know each other and I changed your mind, I hope.[00:12:40 - 00:12:41]
Yeah.[00:12:42 - 00:13:10]
When you start a doctoral program. Our program, it was very small. There were. There were eight of us who started together, and we would go out to lunch with. With the group on a regular basis. And so we just started spending more time together. I think both of us recognized we were interested in each other, and we eventually transitioned into dating. It was a little nerve wracking. I was worried if this falls apart, then I'm gonna have to go to school with this person for, you know, for years. But we decided to take kind of.[00:13:10 - 00:13:20]
Take a dive knowing that she had two children from a former marriage. Obviously it wasn't a deal breaker. But did you have concerns about that?[00:13:20 - 00:16:12]
Great question. The kids were both pretty young. They were 2 and 4 at the time. I think we kind of took it slow, and I wasn't too involved with them very early on. But I think as we started to get comfortable with each other, I spent a lot of time around the kids. There were a couple of times where I was with the kids and they seemed actually to. Especially our oldest, Wyatt. He seemed to really like me early on and seemed to just really enjoy being with me and was excited to maybe have a male figure in his life again. But he was really closely attached to me. So if you're dating somebody that has children, and I didn't have children of my own, you have to navigate some of these decisions about how engaged you'll be with the kids and what distance you're going to need to have. So we tried to keep some separation. And as things got a little bit more serious, especially later on as we got engaged, we started to integrate me into more of the routines. And I think it was a pretty smooth transition for the most part, but it certainly was. Was a big shift. Having to navigate dating with kids and having to navigate who I would be to them, having not had children and understanding what my relationship to them would be. I think early on I was really hesitant to know how they would view me in the future. I think one of my biggest fears was having some sort of line used, you're not my real dad. And having that used against me. But that's actually never happened. Actually, it happened yesterday for the first time with our biological child, which was funny. She's like, you're not my dad. And I was like, oh, that's the line I've been terrified to hear my whole life. And it wasn't so bad because I am. I was really nervous about what that relationship would be like. And it was different for both of the kids. Our oldest was really, like I said, closely attached, but the Younger1, the 2 year old, was a bit more standoffish. I think she maybe wanted me to earn her approval, or maybe she saw me as a competition with her mom's attention. Whatever it might be, it took some time for her to warm up. And that was, I guess, a process in and of itself. You know, it went on through the first several years of marriage. And we eventually had a kid of our own. And I think actually having a child together really shifted our second child, Rose, but that really shifted her perspective at the time. I think it kind of came clear to her that we're a whole unit now, we're a whole family. And this is my sister. And so some things started to shift there. You know, for years she wouldn't let me kiss her good Night, she wouldn't give me hugs. But, you know, over the last couple of years, since we had a child of our own, I think she has kind of slowly opened up the doors to wanting me to be her dad a little bit more.[00:16:12 - 00:16:37]
That's really great. I know for us, me having been married before and then divorced with a child, Scott had some of those difficult moments of trying to figure out his role there. And so it's interesting to hear it from a different type of a story and see, yeah, some of the same things can, can pop up and can be difficult to navigate, but possible. Right.[00:16:38 - 00:16:51]
Well, I, I, I played dress up, so there was no way Cassidy was not gonna just melt. And that was her dress up model. Remember that? Yeah.[00:16:51 - 00:16:53]
The crowns, the dresses, the.[00:16:54 - 00:17:13]
Oh, yeah, anything and everything makeup. So that was fun. Fun times. Okay, so four years ago is kind of when you said kind of some transitions were happening. H. How is it looking now? Fast forward four years.[00:17:13 - 00:17:17]
What are the best things that you can do for your marriage to make this all work?[00:17:19 - 00:19:06]
I think the whole time we've been really intentional about the decisions we've made, how much Adam has involved with the children. Because if he's gonna commit to me, he also has to understand what it would be like to be around these children. And so I think taking a pretty measured approach from the beginning. But then I think because the kid's dad passed, I think we also have different challenges than those who are dealing with divorce, where the children may be going back and forth in a household. And so we made the decision early on that the children would call. I think at first we started calling him Daddy Adam and Daddy Isaac to differentiate which dad was talking about. And then I think eventually, over time, it kind of turned to dad and Daddy Isaac to make sure we're honoring the fatherhood, I would say, of both men. And I think that worked. So I think figuring out language that helps the children understand their relationship to each person was helpful. Another thing we did, discipline wise, is I said, I want you to be a full parent because there isn't another parent present. I don't think it makes sense to kind of relegate you to the back when you're going to be part of their future. And so we integrated that pretty early on that we would kind of come up with the parenting stuff together and parent together. But also each parent can parent on their own. Like, he doesn't have to wait to discipline the kids until I get home. You know, sometimes that can be really hard, depending on what age you're merging families that the kids ages. Sometimes that can be really hard to receive any sort of discipline from a, a step parent. But in our scenario, we decided to do that, and I think that's been a positive thing for us, and it maybe was possible because the children were so young.[00:19:07 - 00:19:23]
What are the best things that you have done for your relationship with working two heavy jobs, two researchers, parents. What are the things that you intentionally put into your marriage to keep your marriage fresh and. And great.[00:19:24 - 00:19:35]
Well, we have maybe a unique situation where we work together. You know, it's a little tough to give advice because our situation can be so special. We work together and we don't hate each other, which is the great thing.[00:19:35 - 00:19:37]
That's a great start.[00:19:37 - 00:20:31]
But I think, you know, some of the things that we've tried to do is, is to make time for each other and take time for each other, and that's easier to do a little bit when you work together. You know, we can go to lunch together when we can, and, and we get to see each other and check in with each other on a regular basis. And so that allows us to maybe navigate some work stuff together. But then when we're home, we really just try to be home. We're usually not engaging too much in conversations about work. And we've tried to be really intentional about prioritizing our relationship, going on trips together and spending time going on regular date nights. I think any sort of relationship maintenance is maybe really simple, but can be. Can be a struggle depending on different arrangements. But luckily ours, I think because of our family life, it's been pretty easy to. To prioritize the time we get to spend together.[00:20:31 - 00:22:05]
Yeah. But I think one thing that I, I would want to share with with your listeners that I think was really helpful when it was really stressful and demanding. And obviously our first year of marriage was in the last year of our doctorate program, and that's a very intense time. We were working as visiting professors, a dissertation, while also raising two children. So it was a lot. And one of the things we did that I think was a total game changer was we put in our calendar, we termed it weekly Love Fest. And it was just a time where we, we spent together looking at our calendars. We would decide, like, who would make dinner, who would take the kids, who would pick up the kids. We would kind of lay out our whole week of how we were going to do things. And then because we were also working to build up resumes and working on dissertation, we also could say, hey, I'M working to get this publication in. And then the other person would be like, okay, why don't you stay late at school this night and all do the kids? And so I think just setting up that kind of communication that when the stress was really high, we could kind of have a way of turning to one another, sharing our goals and strategizing together with what resources we had. I think that really helped us to kind of team up together to meet our couple and individual goals. And then as stress has lessened, we haven't had to do something so formal like every single week. But I think we still do that now, where we really have a way of communicating to one another that we are invested in each other's goals.[00:22:07 - 00:22:09]
Sounds like a lot of intentionality there.[00:22:09 - 00:22:29]
It does. And it does sound like our couples councils that we really recommend just that weekly checking in. I love that you called it a love fest, though. To plan and to schedule and to look at our goals and to look at our shared vision and make sure that each person is getting the things they need by supporting each other.[00:22:29 - 00:22:30]
Yeah, for sure.[00:22:30 - 00:23:06]
That's beautiful. Well, I, I know that that kind of act in and of itself leads to greater intimacy with each other, greater emotional intimacy, and often even greater sexual intimacy. I, I think this is a great segue into talking about your research on sexual communication. And so my first question would be, what led you to, to be interested in this topic in the first place and tell us just a little bit about your research. We'll ask questions along the way, but just share that with us a little bit.[00:23:07 - 00:26:17]
I started researching sexual communication during my master's degree and I was new to research. This was some of the first encounters. I had been involved in a few other studies, but to really lead my own research study was intimidating. I thought I was interested in doing a research study, but there were a few things that really kind of stuck out to me. One was watching some cases when you're starting in a therapy program, they don't let you work with real patients right away. You got to sit behind the glass and watch how the others do it. And so we would, we would sit behind a one way mirror and I'd watch some of these sessions. And session after session were these couples that were having difficulty communicating about sex. Whether it was couples that were newlyweds that were navigating sex and navigating the changes of maybe even having sex for the first time, Some of them had waited until marriage to have sex, or seeing couples that had been together 30 years plus years where the wife was telling the husband that she had never had an orgasm throughout the course of their relationship, and watching the husband be devastated. And people would, you know, tell me, we've been married a couple of years, and. And we don't have sex, and I don't even know how to talk to my wife about it. And so it just seems so strange to me to be watching a lot of these relationships and just see how much of a challenge communicating about sex really seemed to be. And I decided I wanted to do my master's thesis on studying how sexual communication impacts different relationship outcomes. And we've done several studies since then to. To expand on that, I did a survey with couples. So I got both partners to participate, and. And I'd have them answer different questions about how they communicated about sex. We asked questions about the topics they could talk about with sex, but also how they talked about it. So were both partners bringing ideas to the table? Were both partners willing to engage in the conversation? Did one shy away from the conversation while the other pursued? And then different relational outcomes, you know, their relationship satisfaction, their sexual satisfaction. And I think the thing that really hooked me into research was when we started analyzing the findings, we found that the way that couples talk about sex is very distinct and unique skill. So the ways that people would talk about sex, it would explain their sexual satisfaction, but not their relationship satisfaction. And there's a really close relationship between how satisfied people are in their relationship and how satisfied they are in their sexual life. But when we account for several different factors, really improving how you talk about sex, and having a language to be able to discuss sexual is crucial in order to have a happy sex life. And so I think that opened up a world of possibilities for exploring the ways couples talk about sex. Because as a therapist, a lot of times we might assume, well, let's just help this couple work through conflict, and then naturally, they'll be able to translate that into the bedroom, they'll naturally have a better sex life. I think that's a really common misconception, and it doesn't quite work that way.[00:26:17 - 00:26:26]
What kind of conversations in your research have you found that specifically help improve that sexual communication?[00:26:27 - 00:27:12]
One interesting finding that we had in a qualitative study we did is that the happiest couples where both partners are satisfied, they share their fantasies with their partner. So a lot of times, fantasy is considered to be something like individualistic. Right? It's something I explore in my mind. But what was interesting was pretty much only couples where both people were satisfied talked about how they really bring their fantasy to their partner, which I think is really interesting because so many people go looking for fantasy in other places. And so to me, it is kind of representative of this idea of I actually bring my whole self, right? I actually let you know what's interesting to me, what I think about maybe what dreams I have. Whatever it is, they actually share it with their partner.[00:27:12 - 00:27:58]
I think the conversations that are most impactful for couples are ones where they are intentional about building a sexual relationship that's satisfying and fulfilling for both of them, whatever that might look like. And that while that sounds maybe very simple on a surface level, those types of conversations require a lot of openness, a lot of vulnerability, especially around a topic that's very commonly taboo in most families. And so in order to have that conversation, you have to be. You have to be willing to be seen. And so those types of conversations really force both partners to the negotiation table in order to really. To build something that's lasting and satisfying.[00:27:59 - 00:28:12]
Did your research show when is the best time to communicate about those things? Do you do it formally, informally, during sex, outside of sex? Did you look at any of those kinds of questions?[00:28:13 - 00:29:52]
So I actually didn't look at that too much in my research, but there have been a lot of other great researchers that have explored that. And what we tend to find is that everything is sex. Everything from the beginning of the day to the end of the day is a way of communicating about sex, right? Whether it's waking up and giving your partner a kiss or saying hello or spending some time together, this is all a way of communicating and expressing some interest about sex. And so a lot of this communication and negotiation starts early in the day. And I think a lot of couples get a little stuck when they try to have these conversations at a specific time, or they. If they try to work out all their sexual difficulties right before having sex, that also tends to create a dynamic where they have some increased closeness. But it also may create some situations where we're ignoring all of the other areas of our life where we can really be building and creating a satisfying dynamic. So I don't know that it's so much before or after sex. There is some good research that has explored some of those things. They'll have couples journal before and after, and talking a lot after sex can be the start of the next sexual experience. So you're forecasting, what do we do next time? How was that for you? What did you like? What do you want to keep? And so if you can start that conversation it, it's a way of, of building toward the next one. And so when we talk about sexual communication, it's really looking throughout their day to find chances to check in with each other.[00:29:53 - 00:30:19]
So I have a couple of questions. My assumption is that most of these couples coming in with these problems in regards to sexual communication, it's the man who is perhaps feeling frustrated that he can't communicate with his wife about his needs and wants. Is that largely true or am I off? Is it usually the men that have this issue?[00:30:20 - 00:32:52]
Well, the research shows, and I would say clinically, men usually come with a complaint and the complaint is usually focused on frequency. We are not having sex frequently enough. And so it is interesting that men's sexual communication often is in the form of a complaint, but you also then have to think about, consider that other side. If my partner's always engaging me from a complaining place, right. That's not the most inviting place. I think a lot of times it's twofold. I think the way sex is shown in media, in pornography is very male centric. And so a lot of times men are saying, I want more sex. And women are not interested in that kind of sex because that kind of sex is often performative for the woman. It's, I'm supposed to make you feel good that you satisfied me. But there's not a lot of exploration of what actually is going to feel good for me. And so a lot of times women, I think in our, in American society where there's a lot of value on purity and virginity, a lot of women like kind of shy away from sex. So sex is often something that accidentally happens, or sometimes it's no, no, no, and then, oops, it happened. Right? Like there's always needing to be some plausible deniability. But with that kind of approach, then when sex becomes okay, either because they're in a committed relationship or they're married, a lot of times it's hard to turn, turn that around, right. Because you've started a relationship with, you're always the brakes and the man is always the accelerator. And in that way, women kind of come, I would say, underdeveloped in terms of their own fantasies, in terms of knowing their own bodies. And so a lot of times they are not interested in sex because it's not sex worth having. But I do think both men and women will be highly interested in sex if it is something they create together. Nobody wants to fit into fantasy template. They don't, Right. And people feel that. And so I think women often can be the brakes when they sense that. But men too, can be that way. Our research showed that if men feel that women are engaging in sex to pacify him because they know he's complained about it and he's. Is he going to go look somewhere else? So now I'm going to have sex with him. I think both partners can feel when their partner does not genuinely desire to be close to them. And I think both genders will feel some sort of discomfort with that if they feel like they're trying to be manipulated through sex.[00:32:52 - 00:33:28]
I, I agree with you. I. I'm a firm believer that you can do the exact same thing performatively and have totally different outcomes up here in your mind. And so the second thing is you talked a little bit about fantasies, Rebecca. So you're talking with different couples, and one partner says, hey, here's my fantasy. And the other partner's like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. I can't believe you. You're thinking of this. So how do you manage that in a way where, I mean, is our.[00:33:28 - 00:33:30]
Manager and communicating all butts off now?[00:33:30 - 00:34:02]
It's like, okay, that. That shut down or work through it or like it. Because I think sex is highly personal, highly intimate. We really don't even know ourselves, quite frankly. It's. We take a lifetime of learning about our own identity, including our sexual identity. And so it's like, I don't even know if I want that. Like, I've never thought about it, right? Until a partner comes up and says, hey, what about this? And it's like, huh. So how do you navigate that in these couples?[00:34:02 - 00:35:37]
I think that's a great question. I think the antidote to that is to find what for each partner is going to help them get to a place where they can be curious about that fantasy and what that means to their partner. So often, if I'm communicating a fantasy, it's not so much I would necessarily like to try this. It's. There's something in me that's interested in this, and I want to explore it. And so sometimes it takes getting some space or some perspective, but to be able to. To turn toward your partner with some curiosity and have some interest is into what might they really be trying to tell me here, what might be appealing about that to them. That curiosity really tends to be the antidote. And that allows the couples to come together with this sort of beginner's mindset of. Of like you said, Scott, to be able to approach a sexual relationship with an understanding that I'm developing my Identity. I'm not coming with a pre determined identity here. And so together we're going to, we're going to discover who we both are. I think that's helpful. And so I think a lot of times with these ideas, if you're coming into the bedroom with a very strong opinion of who you are and who you might be, I think that can oftentimes take away from a lot of opportunity for discovery and growth to be open to. Learning about your partner seems to, seems to be the starting point for a lot of couples to be able to discover and work through those different conflicts.[00:35:38 - 00:37:05]
So sometimes your resistance may feel like it puts you in a different role than you like to be in or that's sexually interesting to you. A lot of times when people say I have this fantasy, I don't think they're so married to that. It may say I wanted to do this because I, I think it would be interesting to try to be stimulated in this particular way or in this particular area of my body. And so I think if the partner can be curious, you know, I mean like kind of control your own shock. Because sometimes I will say when partners react really strongly, it can be very shaming of the other partner and they've just like really opened up or taken a chance. And so I think the more you can be curious and say, yeah, what's interesting to you about that? I've never really thought about that. That's not something I've really been interested in. But let's talk about it because maybe it's not that you do that thing at all, right? But you learn something about your partner and maybe you find something that is both interesting to you. But I think being able to bring your fantasies to your partner and know that your partner can not shame you for it and be curious and will be interested in helping you figure out how to integrate whatever that fantasy feels like it would bring to you. If we can find something that works for the both of us, I think that's going to enhance your sex life together because it's a co creation, right? It's not. I, I get to ask for what I want and you're just supposed to deliver it to me. It's, I ask for something because in presenting an idea, I reveal a little bit more about myself and then we.[00:37:05 - 00:37:40]
Create something together that's a little scary, right? I present a little bit more of myself and I don't know how it's going to be taken. It's a little scary. I'm just curious when it comes to female orgasms, male orgasms, there's a lot of differences. But as far as female orgasms go, do most females need to have some sort of storyline that they're thinking about or fantasy to orgasm? What are your thoughts on that?[00:37:40 - 00:39:37]
Yeah, so there have been a lot of different ideas, especially early research that would explore what, what different type of stimuli or what sort of narratives internally are necessary in order to lead to orgasm. And what we tend to find is that there have been a lot of women who really feel that, that a story is quite helpful, but we find that that's actually really quite true for men as well. And we tend to find a lot of different variation in men and women in the ways that the story contributes. And so what's important with that? Orgasm oftentimes for a lot of women feels like it can be really elusive or confusing and may take role playing or a particular storyline in order to orgasm. All sex is, I think, is a story in some sense. What we tend to find is that women oftentimes look at sex as a meaningful conclusion to a story already. One difference I often see in therapy is men are looking at sex as, as a way to generate satisfaction or connection even. And so if we're satisfied and we've had sex, then we're going to start feeling more connected and then we're both going to be more invested in this relationship. Whereas I think a lot of times for women there can be more of an interest of I want to engage in sex as a result of being connected. And so that already says something about the storyline building. And that starts, I think even before a sexual encounter even really begins, is building this, this story of what my partner means to me or what this experience is, is to me. And that can start with a text message earlier in the day or a meaningful kiss when you get home. You know, small things like that, checking in help build a storyline that leads to hopefully a satisfying orgasm at the end. But you have any thoughts on that?[00:39:37 - 00:40:44]
The only thoughts I'll add is David Snarge, who wrote Passionate Marriage. He talks about role play and also Esther Perel talks about like sex is a place you go. And so I think a lot of times when there is a story that maybe you're co creating or you're doing role play, whether that's you're actually getting dressed up or in maybe the way you talk throughout your sex, you're taking on a role. It's a form of play that adults do. Right. It's like I can try on being someone more dominant or someone more submissive. Right. It's, it's a place where you can explore, explore yourself in different parts of yourself. And so I think couples with greater intimacy all often do include some sort of role play or story in their sex because it is a place where they let down their guard and they say, we're gonna, we're gonna try different things together. So I think if you're taking that creative approach, it probably will enhance your sex life, but it certainly isn't required. But you kind of do see that theme in a lot of sex experts kind of suggestions is that the more open you can be, the more playful you can be. You might be including some sort of story or role play.[00:40:45 - 00:41:08]
So important for couples to communicate about those ideas and how they feel about them and make those decisions together. We've loved having you both on, and I know we barely touched the surface on some of these ideas, but I know that you have a couple of ways that you can share more about this with our listeners. Would you like to tell us where people can find you?[00:41:09 - 00:41:16]
We have a podcast. It's called Keeping it up with the Joneses. So don't forget the it Keeping it up with the Joneses.[00:41:16 - 00:41:17]
Pun intended.[00:41:17 - 00:41:31]
Yes, the pun is intended. We are on all your podcast platforms and you can also find us on Facebook and Instagram as well. We have pages there where you could follow us to see when we're posting new episodes.[00:41:32 - 00:41:33]
That's wonderful.[00:41:33 - 00:41:35]
Keeping it up with the Joneses.[00:41:35 - 00:41:40]
Okay, that's hilarious. And I'm guessing you'll be sharing a lot about your research on there.[00:41:40 - 00:41:48]
Yes, we have a format where we release it in seasons and so this first season is about our research on heterosexual couples and sexual communication.[00:41:48 - 00:41:49]
Awesome.[00:41:49 - 00:41:49]
Wonderful.[00:41:49 - 00:41:50]
Look forward to it.[00:41:50 - 00:41:59]
Thanks both of you so much for being with us today and and to our listeners. Hopefully you've enjoyed this and we'll see you next week.[00:41:59 - 00:42:10]
Have a good week. And remember, the intelligent spouse knows that to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in themselves.[00:42:10 - 00:42:27]
Thank you for joining us on Marriage iq. We hope today's episode sparked some great insights, but why stop here? Stay connected and keep keep the momentum going. Follow Marriage IQ on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube for more great content on this topic.[00:42:28 - 00:42:38]
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