Episode 50. Shame vs Guilt: The Secrets Shame Hides with Steve O’Connor
Breaking Free from the Shame Cycle
Moving beyond shame requires intentional effort and often, professional support. Here are some strategies that Steve and our research have found effective:
1. Foster Open Communication
Creating a safe space for honest dialogue is crucial. This means setting aside judgment and actively listening to your partner's experiences and feelings. As Steve noted, "When I share my weaknesses with my wife, she can listen, she can empathize, and quite often has really good advice that helps me."
2. Embrace Vulnerability
Vulnerability, often mistaken for weakness, is actually a strength in relationships. It takes courage to share our deepest fears and insecurities with our partners. By modeling vulnerability, we create opportunities for deeper connection and understanding.
3. Seek Professional Help
There's no shame in seeking support from therapists, counselors, or support groups. In fact, it's a sign of strength and commitment to your relationship. As Steve emphasized, "It's not weakness to get help, to reach out."
4. Practice Self-Compassion
Combating shame often starts with how we treat ourselves. Cultivating self-compassion can help us move from self-criticism to self-acceptance, which in turn allows us to be more compassionate with our partners.
5. The Role of Faith and Personal Values
For many couples, faith and personal values can serve as anchors during times of struggle. Steve shared how his faith provides him with affirmations and promises that help combat toxic shame. Whether it's through scripture, meditation, or personal mantras, finding sources of positive affirmation can be powerful tools in overcoming shame.
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Welcome to Marriage iQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse.[00:00:08 - 00:00:10]
I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings.[00:00:10 - 00:00:12]
And I'm Dr. Scott Hastings.[00:00:13 - 00:00:31]
We are two doctors, two researchers, two spouses, two lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose. To transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones, using intelligence mixed with a little fun.[00:00:34 - 00:00:56]
Hello, all you intelligent spouses out there, and welcome back to Marriage iq, the podcast for the intelligent spouse, where we dive deep into the real hurrah and sometimes messy aspects of marriage so you can build a relationship that not only lasts, but is scintillating.[00:00:56 - 00:02:00]
That's right. I'm Dr. Heidi Hastings, and I'm here with my handsome husband, Dr. Scott Hastings. Today we're going to tackle a topic that affects so many couples, isn't very often talked about openly, that is guilt and shame in marriage. So to help us unpack this, we are honored to have Steve O. Connor join us. He's the founder of Catholics Fight Porn, and he's a podcast host by the same name. And I met Steve when he invited me several months ago to be a guest on his podcast to talk about some of my research. In his work, Steve has helped many individuals and couples break free from the weight of shame, whether it's secret addictions, infidelity, or maybe even other types of shame that really impact marriages. So today we're going to explore the key differences between guilt and shame and how they show up in relationships. And most importantly, how to move forward.[00:02:00 - 00:02:01]
Yes.[00:02:01 - 00:02:07]
Toward healing and deeper connection. So welcome to the show, Steve. We're so glad to have you.[00:02:07 - 00:02:11]
Thank you, Dr. Heidi. Thank you, Dr. Scone. It's a pleasure to be here.[00:02:12 - 00:02:39]
Steve has been married to Kristin, his wife, since 2011, and has a daughter, Veronica. After about two decades as a high performance cell representative, he and his wife launched Catholics Fight Porn, where he coaches clients individually and also in groups. His mission is to help men break free from porn and sexual addiction. Thanks so much for being on with us today.[00:02:40 - 00:02:53]
So, Steve, could we start by just having you tell a little about yourself, about your story and how you really came to learn more about guilt and about shame?[00:02:54 - 00:03:28]
Yeah, well, thanks. I didn't really understand the difference until I started coaching and I found out that guilt is when we do something wrong. And shame is feeling that I'm wrong or. Or another way of saying it is. Guilt is I've made a mess. Shame is I am a mess. So it's funny because I. But I lived that, so I didn't know that until five years ago and started coaching. And that distinction has been really, really helpful because it can get blurred quite easily.[00:03:28 - 00:03:32]
I could see that with a lot of people how that would be, and they are very different.[00:03:33 - 00:03:36]
So tell us a little bit about your experience then.[00:03:36 - 00:04:36]
Yeah, well, I grew up, you know, youngest of three, three boys, great, great family and Catholic household. But I fell away from my faith in high school. Not in a blatant way, just fell into the ways of the world. And I was shown a pornography magazine at an early age when I was 10 years old, up that reward center of the brain and has just stuck with me for many years after that. So I'm sure deep down I knew it was wrong. But it wasn't until I got back into my faith journey at 19 and heard some talks and some education that, you know what? This is wrong. I shouldn't be doing this. And then I had this long struggle for years of not knowing how to break free from it. And so for me, where the shame really crept in was, okay, now I know this is wrong, but I don't know how to stop.[00:04:37 - 00:04:41]
I'm sure that's very similar to a lot of our listeners as well.[00:04:42 - 00:05:01]
Yeah, it's interesting that you felt like it's wrong. I know there's a lot of folks out there, some research that suggests that actually porn is good for you or your relationship. What have you run across that and if you have, what have you thought about that?[00:05:02 - 00:05:28]
Yeah, I mean, I've heard about it from several guys. You know, they might have a therapist that says it's healthy, it's a guy thing, you need to do those, it's a good release, it actually will spice up your marriage and whatnot. For me personally, this wasn't the case because when I am viewing it, it's all about me. So it's selfish and it's turning another person into an object.[00:05:29 - 00:05:30]
Okay.[00:05:30 - 00:07:00]
And then that carries over to everyday life. I could be at work, I could be at church, I could be at the mall or whatever, see someone and right away I'm turning it into a sex object in my mind. And so for me, it wasn't healthy. I mean, I can see why other people may think that or have gotten that advice, but on the contrary, it's quite destructive. And that guilt and shame gets expounded upon, especially in a marriage. It can be either gender, but let's say it's the husband that's viewing. Well, the wife catches him and she thinks, well, what about me? Am I not good enough? Why do you got to Be looking at a screen or a magazine. Yeah, I'm right here. You know, I want a scintillating relationship, but you just want to look at a screen. And so it really breaks down this intimacy in the marriage. And typically because of the shame, there's a lot of hiding, lying, deceiving, minimizing. Oh, no, no, it's, it's not that bad. And the guy will typically tell the wife whatever he needs to to kind of get her off his mark. Right. But he's still doing it or he'll stop for a few weeks until the next bout begins. And so it weaves its way into relationships and it does a lot more harm than, from what I've understood, is the benefit of it.[00:07:00 - 00:07:40]
Yeah, we did do an episode, I think it's episode 29, it's called no Girls Allowed, where we talk about the research on pornography in relationships, specifically marriage. And there is very little doubt about the negative effects of pornography on a relationship over the long term. If you want a long term relationship and not a short term fling, then the evidence is very clear on this. It is highly detrimental. So that research actually backs up your own personal experience.[00:07:40 - 00:08:33]
Yeah, you know, I was sponsoring a guy and Oren was welcome in their marriage. And what happened was the husband, as great as that was, it all had to be on his terms. And so she was like, hey, let's watch it together. You know, this can spice up what we're doing and introduce new ideas, et cetera, et cetera. And him just being full blown into it would be viewing it without her and hiding it, viewing it in public. Got arrested once. So this thing that was once welcome into their marriage, like I said, became all about him. And a lot of us guys or guys that I've worked with were selfish. So it's never enough. You know, it's keep clicking, clicking, clicking and nothing's ever left.[00:08:34 - 00:08:40]
So you came to a point where you felt like it was wrong. Then where did your journey lead?[00:08:41 - 00:09:46]
And then I struggled for the next five years. Is in a couple relationships. It was the one thing I never told them. We aligned on our faith, we aligned on our values. And I had a secret thing going on on the side. I truly felt that I was living a double life. You know, they say Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. And so those relationships did not work out. I finally met Kristen and we started dating. I knew something was different with her. I knew very shortly thereafter I'd love to marry her, but I didn't want the secret, basically. So I told her and she was pretty good about it and was like, okay, you know, I know a lot of guys struggle with that. Just tell me when it happens. And so I would tell her, and she'd be hurt each time. Well, what do you mean? So eventually, that was hard for me to keep going through, let alone what she was going through. So I stopped doing that. Now I'm lying through omission. I'm hiding it.[00:09:46 - 00:09:47]
Yeah.[00:09:48 - 00:11:27]
And it hit ahead six or eight months later. I, ironically, had just come off, or relapse, whatever you want to call it. She said, hey, we need to talk. We said, okay. She said, are you still struggling with this? I said, yes. She said, well, I just heard a talk from a therapist who said, if corn's in the relationship and you're not giving anything about it, it's very detrimental. It's very destructive. So if the guy does have a problem, he should get help on it. And so she kind of put that to me as like, hey, I love you, I want to marry you, but you do need to fix this or work on it or I can't. For me, it was this instant relief. Like, all right, this is great. Because I had wanted to smell. Quite honestly, it's probably just my own weakness of being somewhat lazy, Procrastinating. I don't do the good I should do until I'm about to lose something. I said, whatever you want. I'll do whatever you want. I'll go wherever you want. I'll talk to whoever you want me to talk to. She said, you can call this therapist or any other. And I did. That therapist led me to a closer therapist to me, went to see him, and we worked through things on a deeper level. But ultimately he said, you should go to this 12 step group. Sexaholics Anonymous went there and, you know, the first meeting was weird and awkward because everybody's smiling and laughing and having a good time. And I'm like, guys, what are you doing? This is a serious thing, you know, like struggling with porn here. Right?[00:11:27 - 00:11:28]
Right.[00:11:28 - 00:12:51]
Guys, we're laughing, talking about the Bears and the packers, you know, and so fast forward now. I'm one of those guys that can chuckle before the meeting begins because we kind of know what it takes now we're in recovery. And so I found the hope. I found guys that were a step ahead of me, two steps ahead of me, ten steps ahead of me. They could tell me, here's what works, here's what doesn't work. So we like to say that recovery is simple, but it's not easy. So I was able to clean up my act, get the help I needed to. There were certainly bumps and bruises along the way, but Kristin then trusted that I was getting help. I was fully committed. I was all in on this. And so she felt safe that whenever I would propose, she would trust that that was right. So, thankfully, through all of that, and I've stayed with that group 15 years later, and wow, by the grace of God, you know, 11 years sober, one day at a time, and I'm just as committed as ever, you know, because I know deep down it's not good for me. So, yeah, initially I didn't approve for this relationship, but, you know, at a certain point, you have to do it for yourself.[00:12:52 - 00:13:13]
I can see shame woven in so many parts of your journey. The story that you just told, I can also see guilt in there. Sometimes it led you to make some changes. Was that guilt or shame because you were doing it because you were going to lose something. So how does that work?[00:13:13 - 00:13:27]
What might be guilt? You know, guilt motivates you to do the right thing. Shame is like, well, if they have this problem, I'm never going to get better. I guess I'm going to lose her. So you really stay stuck in shame.[00:13:27 - 00:13:28]
Okay.[00:13:28 - 00:14:10]
Guilt is a good thing you like, you know, when it motivates you to repent, to do better. So, yeah, you know, with my religious background, just different things, you know, into confession, for example. I was in confession so often, it was so shameful, you know, and one, because it was public, because other people, you know, it's like that thing where you can make a mistake, you might willingly do something wrong, but if you're the only one that knows about it, you've kind of justified it and rationalized it. But the minute someone else knows you've done this wrong thing.[00:14:10 - 00:14:11]
Yeah.[00:14:11 - 00:14:32]
Oh, that's shameful. Particularly in college, I was going to church every day, and I was almost in confession every day, but seeing the same 20, 30, 40 students. And they typically, confession might be a monthly thing or an annual thing model multiple times a week.[00:14:32 - 00:14:46]
So for those who may not know the ins and outs of Catholicism, what does going to confession look like? Is it everybody else can see you've got some kind of an issue or how does that work?[00:14:47 - 00:15:02]
Yeah, they don't know what you're personally dealing with. But the culture is kind of, you know, hey, if you're going three, four, or five times a week, you must be slipping into some serious swing.[00:15:02 - 00:15:03]
What's wrong with you?[00:15:03 - 00:15:08]
Yes. And so I kept thinking they must know something.[00:15:08 - 00:15:10]
So that heaped on the shame.[00:15:10 - 00:15:12]
Yeah, for sure.[00:15:14 - 00:15:20]
It seems to me like guilt is. You still have something left to give.[00:15:20 - 00:15:21]
I like that.[00:15:21 - 00:15:24]
There's really nothing left either. You're hopeless.[00:15:25 - 00:15:25]
Yeah.[00:15:26 - 00:15:34]
Do you see shame in other types of areas than just sexual kinds of behaviors?[00:15:35 - 00:16:33]
Yeah. You know, money's a big marriage issue, Right. So there's financial strains. Let's say the husband loses his job and he. Oh, man, what am I going to do to make ends meet? You know, I have a wife and kids that are counting on me and my paycheck. Now I'm not good enough because I've suddenly lost the job. Maybe through no fault of your own. Now what do I do then? Maybe you find some lesser job because you need a paycheck. And then it's. Maybe now you're outside of your lane, maybe you're not putting your degree to its fullest capacity. You know, it's like working at a grocery store. Nothing against anyone that works at a grocery store, but maybe you were in finance or maybe you had some profession, some, you know, that your degree called for, and now you're doing something that is just out of that realm. So there can be stress there, there can be shame there.[00:16:34 - 00:16:40]
Yeah, I can see that. Maybe a little bit differently. I wouldn't think of going to confessional if I lost my job.[00:16:40 - 00:16:41]
Right, right.[00:16:41 - 00:16:43]
But it is still very shameful. It can be.[00:16:43 - 00:16:49]
Anyway, if it keeps you stuck, there may be an element of shame. Would you say that's one of the indicators?[00:16:49 - 00:16:50]
Yes.[00:16:50 - 00:16:54]
Maybe shame is at play. And are. Are there other indicators?[00:16:55 - 00:17:34]
Yeah, no, definitely staying stuck, you know, because it could be too, okay, take on a secondary job or, you know, that's fine, and maybe you want to get back into your profession and, you know, the hiring process is tough and going through that and waiting on companies and maybe you hear back and maybe you don't. You just can't land a job and you're really struggling and stressed out at home. And it's the shame that I'm not good enough. How come nobody wants to hire me? Am I too old? Am I too young? Do I not have enough experiences? And so ultimately shame will lead you to give up.[00:17:34 - 00:17:53]
How much shame do you see coming from comparing ourselves to other people? All of the examples you've given, you're talking about, what will my girlfriend think? What will the priest think? What will the other people who stand in line think? What will my family think? What will my neighbors think?[00:17:53 - 00:17:53]
Yeah.[00:17:53 - 00:18:03]
When they see me working at the Grocery store and not in my high profile job. How much of shame is bred through comparison?[00:18:04 - 00:19:10]
See, for me, maybe a higher amount. And sometimes it could be repressed shame where you're not even aware of it, but you picked up on comparison and caring what other people think. And I think for me, that's a personal issue. Like it's a personal weakness of mine. Ultimately I should care what my wife thinks of me, what my daughter thinks of me, and above them is what God thinks of me. That's actually the solution is that it doesn't really matter what your job is, what your title is. Going back to that example, you lost a job. Maybe you have to sell a car and drive a beater. That's embarrassing what the townspeople do. The thing I had to get rid of this nice car that I had, I'm driving a junker. Yeah, it's embarrassing, kind of humiliating. But if we know that we're still alive with her spouse, by our children, by our maker, none of that should matter. And that's where the work comes in and the healing and the growth.[00:19:11 - 00:19:21]
Great. That's a great segue into how can couples recognize guilt and shame and then start moving forward?[00:19:21 - 00:20:12]
I think two big things, number one is communication. You know, we all have issues, but particularly for anyone with my struggle, I focus with the guys I work with. So we all have weaknesses. It doesn't matter if your wife has a weakness. We have to work on our own weaknesses, shore them up. The better we get. Quite often that has an impact on the family. The better children will do, the better the spouse will, the new. It doesn't make any of their issues go away, but the better we can work on them, the better we can show up. If we're communicating on a regular basis, hey, here's what happened today. Here's what I'm going through. So often we don't want to talk about our weaknesses because it's shameful.[00:20:12 - 00:20:13]
Right?[00:20:13 - 00:20:46]
But when I share my weaknesses with my wife, she can listen, she can empathize, and quite often has really good advice that helps me. So the weakness gets turned into a strength. So I just would say communication and being open to working on our own shortcomings, faults, and not dealing it with pride or, you know, well, you have issues too. You fix yours and then I'll fix mine. It's like it just talk about a formula to stay stuck. Right?[00:20:46 - 00:22:01]
That sounds a lot like some of our four cornerstones. We say every episode. To change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires A change in ourselves. And that's true. And that really hits on insight. That's one of our four cornerstones. Do I have insight enough to recognize when I'm doing something wrong? And am I a strong enough individual emotionally to accept that as fact and then intentionally sit down with my spouse and make time for discussion of it? And that leads to another cornerstone of intimacy. By becoming vulnerable with each other, like you said, we can reach new levels of intimacy together. And so I really like how, in your own words, you describes things that really fit our model of the four cornerstones. They all start with I and I like it.[00:22:01 - 00:23:08]
Well, we build this big wall around our heart because of these weaknesses. It probably goes back to childhood that, you know, if you make a mistake, you get yelled at. What are you doing? Very harsh, very direct. And maybe not in every background. You know, we all have different personalities, and we have different ways. We were purity. You know, there's attachment styles and all sorts of things. But it's very hard to do that intentional work you talked about or to have that insight awareness sometimes. That's my biggest challenge in working with guys is just allowing them to be vulnerable. We just want to blame or not look at ourselves too deep. It was like, she wants me to do this, wants me to do this. I don't want to keep talking about this. And I understand those are the natural reactions at first, but the growth and healing take place when we can do all those cornerstones. But it does take strength, and it's very intimate, you know, and sex is not intimacy.[00:23:08 - 00:23:12]
It can be, but it's not in and of itself.[00:23:12 - 00:23:27]
It's typically the fruit of this work. Right. When you can connect emotionally and you're vulnerable with one another and then that's all out of the way and can be of the same mind to enjoy that intimacy together.[00:23:27 - 00:23:38]
I think that there's an unfortunate definition of the word vulnerable that only is defined one way, and that is weakness.[00:23:39 - 00:23:39]
Yep.[00:23:40 - 00:24:50]
If I'm vulnerable, I'm weak, somebody can come attack me. I can't defend myself. And as men, I don't want to over generalize. I think for at least 51% of the men out there, we feel, yeah, we need to protect our family, protect our marriage. Protection means strength, strong, powerful, you beat down the bad guys. And when we talk about the other side of vulnerable, it's, wow, this is a new language for me as a man. I don't know if I like it. That means I'm weak. And so what we're trying to do and it sounds like you're trying to do actually model what vulnerability looks like in real time as men and to show, hey, look, it's not so bad, your wives will love it. And I think that is a key, is helping men to understand it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to have models to show you the way.[00:24:51 - 00:25:49]
Yeah, well, like any good army, you have to know, how many troops do I have? What are my weaknesses? Right. Like, the general is not just going to say, nope, not going to talk about where I might come up short in this battle. You would work to solidify that, Right? You look at any sports team, whether it's football, basketball, baseball, hockey. Basketball doesn't have shooting, you're not going to score a lot of points. Football doesn't have blocking, the quarterback's going to get sacked. You have a lot of interceptions. But when they can say, you know, we're really strong here, but our weakness is shooting, our weakness is blocking. What's your weakness? And the moment you fortify those weaknesses, you can be Super Bowl Championship, World Series champions, NBA Finals champions, you can be a champion, you can be victorious in the war when you can strengthen all of those weaknesses so that the opponent doesn't see any weakness whatsoever.[00:25:49 - 00:26:13]
That that's a real trick to do that, shore up those weaknesses and yet be vulnerable in other ways. It is a fine dance between being strong, shoring up those weaknesses, and still learning how and when to be vulnerable.[00:26:14 - 00:27:10]
Well, ultimately, vulnerability isn't weakness. It's a strength. If that fallacy can be corrected. For me, it's a real strength to be open to share what I'm feeling. But so many guys, and maybe women as well, grew up. We don't cry, suck it up, suck it up. Get over it, Go play. And it just got shut down for so many of us. So when I share something with my wife that's vulnerable, or you know what, I'm nervous about this or I'm nervous about that, she's like, oh, well, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Remember this time you were nervous and that time and how great it worked out and you did this or you did that, and you know, she is not there to accuse me. A good wife supports and does not tear down.[00:27:10 - 00:27:14]
It sounds like Kristen is a very good wife.[00:27:15 - 00:28:09]
You've just mentioned, Steve, a really important way that people feel shame, specifically men, and that is shame overfilling emotions. This in and of itself is a huge issue. Exactly like you were saying, being parented in a way that shames little boys. For feeling emotion, calling them a crybaby or a. Or a little girl. That ultimately, in my experience, has such intense impact on a man's ability later to be intimate with his wife. And I have such big, huge issues with this meaning. Pet peeves. This is negatively impacting our society because there's so much shame at feeling any kind of emotion.[00:28:09 - 00:28:10]
Do I have this problem?[00:28:10 - 00:28:11]
No.[00:28:11 - 00:28:17]
I cry more at movies than my wife does. That is a highly vulnerable statement right there.[00:28:17 - 00:29:07]
And I hope it's okay to reveal your emotion. We were just sitting on Saturday discussing some scriptures, and he just got so emotional about his love for me, and I just stopped him and I said, wait a second. This is every woman's dream to hear. Because he's, oh, I can't cry. I can't cry. And I said, yes, you can. Yeah, this is touching my heart so deeply. And there should be no shame over letting emotion, especially in that good way that connects you deeply as spouses. Let it flow. Let it be there. Don't try to shove it down. That's where shame keeps us from reaching our full potential.[00:29:08 - 00:29:40]
Yeah, that's great. And I had a few thoughts. Like, number one, I don't believe my parents, you know, very much a cultural thing, but being able to work through it is a good thing. But our. We all have emotions. So if we're just going to ignore them, we're doing a big disservice to ourselves. We have thoughts, we think something which leads to a feeling which is an emotion, and then we act on it. That's our behavior. So so often we behave the way we don't want to do, but we don't reverse engineer it and say, well, what was I feeling and what was I thinking?[00:29:40 - 00:29:41]
What was I thinking?[00:29:41 - 00:29:51]
Yeah, that's a great point. And we addressed this a few episodes ago on verbalizing our feelings. It's really learning a new language.[00:29:51 - 00:29:52]
It is, yes.[00:29:52 - 00:30:08]
And if we can learn to verbalize. I feel blank, I feel lonely, I feel ignored, I feel ecstatic. It's teaching your body this language of feeling. So I like that point you're making there.[00:30:08 - 00:30:13]
In one of my groups, I showed him the feelings wheel the other a couple of weeks ago.[00:30:13 - 00:30:14]
Yeah.[00:30:14 - 00:30:17]
Which when you look at it, it looks like this cheesy thing.[00:30:17 - 00:30:19]
But it's not cheesy.[00:30:19 - 00:30:24]
No, it's not. When you need it, it's like, what am I really feeling?[00:30:24 - 00:30:24]
Yes.[00:30:24 - 00:30:49]
It was a basic happy, sad, angry, you know, and you get to these second layers, third layers. And the funny thing was the following week the guys were saying, you know what, Steve? I pulled up the feelings wheel last week and I was amazed because to your point, Dr. Scott, there's no language for this. We didn't grow up talking like this. It's a little awkward.[00:30:49 - 00:30:52]
What do you mean, Steve? I have my manual right here.[00:30:52 - 00:31:25]
Here. And speaking of shame, I will say I think our society is getting better. Therapy's on the rise. Coaching is on the rise. Let's say that there's a couple having an issue. You say, oh, well, are you going to get any help on that? Oh, no, I'm not going to go to a therapist. I'm not going to get coaching. Do you think that's weakness? I'm not going to just talk about my problems. But you need something. If you struggle with any of this, you need. You want more intimacy, want victory over a vice. We have to take some kind of action.[00:31:25 - 00:31:26]
Yeah.[00:31:26 - 00:31:30]
And it is so truly helpful and life changing.[00:31:30 - 00:31:53]
In my research, working with betrayed partners, women whose husbands have pornography problems, which is mirroring what you're talking about because they're often stuck in so much shame as well. But the thing that really, truly got them unstuck was making that intentional effort to get help.[00:31:53 - 00:31:53]
Yeah.[00:31:54 - 00:32:23]
As long as they kept it a secret, as long as they refused to reach out to anybody for help, they stayed in that shame cycle of, I'm not good enough. This is my fault, because I'm not sexually what he wants or my body's not like he wants or whatever stories they tell themselves. Like, you're just being so. Yes, the shame can definitely keep them stuck, keep us stuck, keep us from progressing. And so reaching out for help is really important.[00:32:25 - 00:33:39]
Yeah, you're spot on. And it's quite sad because so many times the guy will just use her as an excuse to act out. Yeah. Oh, well, you don't want to be intimate. I'll go take care of myself. By myself or with someone else. A lot of gaslighting goes on. They kind of make their life seem crazy so that they basically can continue in their behavior. I help guide couples through a full disclosure because when the trade finds out, she's still at an information disadvantage. The guy's been doing this, I don't want to say his whole life, many cases, his whole life. But he knows this much and she knows this much. And so a full disclosure brings the wife up to speed, gets her support. And for the guy, it's quite a relief to get all of it out there. It's ugly. And for the spoils, it can be overwhelming so much. But she does want the truth. And until you have the truth, you can't work on trust. And there's a little bit of grieving in there over what she thought the relationship was, what it's not.[00:33:39 - 00:33:41]
A lot of grieving.[00:33:41 - 00:34:08]
Yep. But ultimately you can get to that healing and transformation. The guy is the one with the problem when he's fully committed, when he's fully honest and doing the work and helping her to heal. And then she can grieve and set boundaries so that, you know, her voice matters. And then they can truly heal. It's a journey, but it's a great, beautiful process.[00:34:09 - 00:34:23]
In your experience now, with a few years of working with individuals, with men, with couples, what's the best advice that you have for helping people move out of shame?[00:34:23 - 00:35:51]
We talked about shame and for me, comparing, what does this person think of me, that person? Ultimately, most people have a higher power. For me, it's God, but some sort of positive affirmations, positive quotes, positive beliefs. For me, Biblical promises from God. And they're littered throughout Scripture. There's no shortage of them. You can Google it and find as many as you need. You can sit and reflect on one of those for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes. So that helps combat the toxic shame. But then two different things we've talked about just getting help. It's not weakness to get help, to reach out. I do work with non Catholics. You know, I can work with an atheist or, you know, but you can always feel free to reach out to me. I can point you in the right direction, especially if you struggle with this unwanted, sexual problematic behavior. But communication between the husband and wife, doing the work, but ultimately not being afraid to be vulnerable like we talked about, you know, we all have weaknesses. I think it's a lie that someone else is perfect. We all have weaknesses. Just being willing to look at it and to work on it and to grow can truly bring about this whole person healing.[00:35:52 - 00:35:52]
I love that.[00:35:53 - 00:36:08]
Do you have a favorite quote or scripture or something that has brought you the most insight, the most strength, the most help in facing the shame that you have experienced?[00:36:08 - 00:36:44]
Sometimes you think, oh, God loves me is like kind of a throwaway quote, you know, or I'm a child of God. I mean, I believe that. But if I can break that down, it actually changes everything. Because if God is my father, then Psalm 23 comes true, that there's nothing I shall want. And if you slowly go through Psalm 23, it's God the Father calling us to this heavenly banquet in heaven. He doesn't say he's going to keep you from trouble. He says he'll be with you through your trouble.[00:36:45 - 00:36:49]
I love that. And for those who may not know, Psalm 23 is in the Old Testament of the Bible.[00:36:49 - 00:37:00]
I'm not alone. I have some different ones that I particularly like. If anyone wants, I'd be happy to share them. I'm sure in your show notes you'll have my contact information.[00:37:01 - 00:37:09]
This has been really great. We really appreciate the insight that you've given us. We're so grateful for the work that.[00:37:09 - 00:37:14]
You'Re doing and where can people find you?[00:37:14 - 00:37:51]
My website is Catholics Fight Porn.com Email is Steve Catholics Fight Porn.com I'm on Instagram Catholic Recovery. And like I said, I do work with non Catholics. So if there's anything that you liked that you heard from me, don't hesitate to reach out. That's my faith background. But I know that it's a journey and everybody's on a different journey. But so many of us in recovery that are doing the work, we all have these same core issues. Doesn't matter your religious background. It's a beautiful thing and a pleasure to be on. And thank you for inviting me.[00:37:52 - 00:38:24]
That's great, everybody. Hopefully you have gained a little insight on shame and how to rid our lives of shame. Use guilt in a way that helps us move forward, in a way that helps us make changes in our life. And that by using guilt appropriately and getting rid of shame, we can help our marriages be more scintillating. So everybody have a great week. And until next week, so long.
