Episode 110 - How to Communicate Without Triggering Defensiveness | Dr. Greg Smalley
Even the Marriage Experts Still Work on Their Marriage
Back in the 1990s, when Scott and I were newly married and racing through medical school life, someone gave us a Christmas gift that felt… ambitious. Cassette tapes. On marriage. There were a lot of them. The intention was sweet. The timing? Not great. Life was fast, exhausting, and full. I don’t think we listened to more than a few minutes before those tapes quietly disappeared into the background of our very busy lives.
Years later, life has a funny way of circling back.
We recently welcomed Dr. Greg Smalley to Marriage IQ the Vice President of Marriage and Family Formation at Focus on the Family, author of more than twenty books, and yes, the son of Gary Smalley… the man who created those very marriage tapes. And what stood out most in our conversation wasn’t his credentials. It was his honesty.
Authenticity Beats Expertise Every Time
One of the most powerful themes in this episode was simple but profound: being real matters more than being impressive. Greg talked openly about watching his parents fight sometimes spectacularly and still show up the next day to teach marriage principles to thousands of couples. They weren’t pretending to be perfect. They were committed to repair.
In fact, one of his favorite stories involves his parents being in a huge argument… while a stranger unknowingly praised Gary Smalley’s marriage videos for saving her marriage. The irony was almost comical. But the takeaway was serious: even people who dedicate their lives to helping marriages struggle in their own relationships. That honesty is exactly what makes the message trustworthy.
Greg shared that his father made his living telling stories about how badly he had messed up as a husband and what he learned from it. Who he was on stage matched who he was at home. That consistency shaped Greg’s entire approach to marriage ministry. Because nothing disconnects couples faster than advice that sounds good but isn’t lived out.
The Fight That Lasted Five Years
One of Greg’s most requested stories comes from just two weeks into his marriage. His wife, Erin, asked a question many spouses have asked in one form or another: “How do you think I’m doing as a wife?” Greg tried to be thoughtful. Measured. Reasonable. He rated her a 9.3 out of 10. It did not go well.
What followed wasn’t just a hurt moment it was years of conflict, misunderstanding, defensiveness, and emotional distance. Greg admitted that at one point, he genuinely thought Erin might leave him. And this is where the story matters. Not because it’s funny (though it is), but because it reveals something essential: early wounds don’t magically disappear just because time passes.
They linger. They resurface. They shape how we interpret each other often long after we think we’ve “moved on.” The difference between couples who grow and couples who drift isn’t the absence of conflict. It’s whether they learn how to repair.
Repair Is Where Real Intimacy Is Built
Greg was clear about something many couples don’t realize until much later: a strong marriage isn’t conflict-free. In fact, conflict can deepen intimacy if you know how to repair.
Repair doesn’t mean explaining why you did what you did…
It doesn’t mean defending your intentions….
And it definitely doesn’t mean saying, “We already talked about this…”
Repair sounds more like:
“I didn’t realize you felt that way.”
“Tell me more about what that was like for you.”
“That makes sense.”
“I’m sorry I hurt you.”
Greg and Erin still go to therapy not because their marriage is failing, but because they value growth. In therapy, they’ve revisited early wounds they thought were long resolved, only to discover deeper layers still needed care.
What surprised Greg most was how healing it was to simply sit with Erin’s experience without justifying, minimizing, or rushing to closure. That kind of presence builds safety. And safety is where connection grows.
Curiosity: The Antidote to Defensiveness
If there was one word that kept resurfacing throughout the episode, it was curiosity. Greg called curiosity the opposite of judgment and one of the most powerful tools couples have.
When we’re curious, we stay open. When we judge, we shut down. Curiosity asks:
“Help me understand.”
“Am I wrong?”
“What did that feel like for you?”
Judgment says:
“That’s not what I meant.”
“You’re overreacting.”
“Why are we still talking about this?”
Greg shared a profound insight about defensiveness: much of it comes from letting your spouse define your identity. When criticism feels like truth instead of information, we fight back. Learning to pause, reflect, and seek truth rather than react changed everything for him.
Curiosity created space, Humility softened pride, And connection replaced control.
Staying Curious Is How You Avoid Becoming Roommates
Toward the end of the conversation, Greg made a bold statement: If he had to name one thing that helps couples avoid drifting into emotional roommates, it would be curiosity.
Not grand gestures, Not perfect communication, Not even conflict resolution skills. Just staying genuinely interested in who your spouse is becoming. Because we are always changing.
When couples stop updating their understanding of each other dreams, fears, stresses, desires they don’t usually fall apart dramatically. They drift quietly. Curiosity pulls couples back toward each other. It keeps marriages alive, relevant, and growing.
Even Good Marriages Need Attention
One of the most reassuring truths from this episode is this: needing help doesn’t mean your marriage is broken.
Strong marriages seek growth…
Healthy couples stay teachable…
Wise partners keep learning…
Whether that means reading books together, spending a day with a therapist, or simply asking better questions curiosity keeps love from going stale. Because a scintillating marriage isn’t built on perfection. It’s built on humility, honesty, and the willingness to keep leaning in especially when it would be easier to pull away. And sometimes, it starts with admitting that a 9.3… just wasn’t the right answer.
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Welcome back everyone, to Marriage IQ, where we are saving civilization one marriage at a time and the Hastings Institute for Advanced Marital Studies.
You know, Heidi, I remember back in the 90s when we were just married.
1:29
I know that seems like forever ago to a lot of people, but my mom gave me some cassette tapes.
Some cassette tapes on marriage.
1:36
Speaker 3
Yes, for Christmas.
I think that was our Christmas present one year.
1:39
Speaker 2
There was a lot of tapes and I thought, oh this is great.
And it talked about a lot of different topics on marriage and.
1:47
Speaker 3
Was when we were in Med school, right?
1:49
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was pretty fast and furious back then because we're off to Med school and there was a lot of busyness.
1:57
Speaker 3
I don't think we ever listened to them, did we?
2:00
Speaker 2
I started OK, I started if.
2:03
Speaker 3
We were too busy.
2:05
Speaker 2
I remember putting in my car because I did a lot of driving right and I would listen to some, but I don't think I got very far.
2:14
Speaker 3
Well, isn't it funny that things actually come full circle?
Because today we're thrilled to welcome Doctor Greg Smalley, who's the Vice President of Marriage and Family Formations at Focus on the Family, the very organization that produced those cassette tapes that you listen to some and I didn't listen to at all.
2:33
Speaker 2
I think the idea was great though, Like it's because a marriage is.
There's a lot to know.
There are a lot of cassette tapes.
2:40
Speaker 3
Right.
So Greg overseas, the initiatives that prepare people for marriage, strengthen couples in lots of different seasons of life, and that also bring real healing to those couples who are in crisis.
He's the author of more than 20 books, including A Couple I Thought Sounded Interesting, Reconnected, Moving from Roommates to Soul Mates in Your Marriage, and Nine Lies that Will Destroy Your Marriage.
3:03
So he's married to Aaron and together they've created the curriculum for Ready to Wed, which is premarital curriculum, such a very needed and important thing.
And they've also created the focus on marriage assessment.
3:19
So these are tools that have, along with the books, transformed countless marriage relationships.
One thing we love most about Greg and Aaron in watching them, listening to some of their content, is that they're really open about the struggles that they faced early in their marriage.
But with humility and with humor and intentionality, which is another one of our cornerstones, they've been able to really build a beautiful marriage themselves.
3:44
They said that one of the Christmas traditions they haven't.
Greg, I'll see if you still do this is to read a book on marriage together every Christmas season.
3:54
Learning from the Smalley Family's Marriage Practices
So welcome, Greg.
Do you still do that?
3:57
Speaker 1
Well, thank you for having me.
And we still do.
Yeah.
And so actually this year what we're doing is because we did this last year and we so loved it that we found a great marriage therapist.
And so we will go spend a full day.
4:15
We don't have a big agenda.
There's not like, hey, we're in Christ.
And it's none of that.
We just want to, we just always want to be doing something to grow.
And last year was such a fun experience.
I mean, we just went and well, let's just talk.
And we got into some great stuff that I didn't even know we needed to process through.
4:35
And so in January, we actually have our appointments.
So we're going to go see her in that.
That's even a substitute for a book that we would typically read.
But do something.
That's the point.
4:47
Speaker 2
What about that, honey?
They teach this stuff and they still go and brush up and they're always learning and curious.
4:54
Speaker 3
Kind of like that annual checkup.
4:57
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's great modeling for the people that you teach.
5:01
Speaker 1
Well, I'm going to send you guys the digital link to those videotapes that my dad put together so I can get you set up grade.
Hey, one of my all time favorite stories though of my parents.
So my dad, Gary Smalley, who who authored those videotapes you guys were talking about was when we were in Hawaii, we're doing a marriage event and so they get in this huge fight.
5:25
So we somehow ended up in this ice cream store later on that night before the event wasn't going to even start.
And they're still totally mad at each other.
And so they're about to order from this ice cream lady And my dad jokes she's hey, how you guys doing?
5:42
And he goes, ah, we're in a big fight.
And she goes, I tell you what, my husband and I, we've been made 40 years and we went through a really hard season.
And she goes one morning and I was that I was just restless.
I couldn't sleep.
I was praying and all of a sudden I had the TV on and some guy comes on selling marriage videos and she goes, I thought it was a sign they were so good.
6:06
She goes, they so transformed our marriage that just I don't know you guys, but I just want to encourage you find those videos there by a guy named Gary Smalley.
And I could not have been more excited that she said that I go, ma'am, this couple here that that hate each other that that's Gary Smalley.
6:25
She screams, comes around, gives him this big hug.
You saved my marriage.
And then she looks at my mom and says, you must feel like the happiest woman on earth.
All the while they're in this huge fight.
And so my mom looks at my dad and says you need to order those marriage videos.
6:45
So there you go.
That was that.
That was one of my favorite stories about them and those videos.
I love that.
6:52
Speaker 2
So great.
That's just a great reminder that we're all human, you know, we all struggle, even the ones at the top of their game.
I think it's just OK to feel that struggle even when you're on top of your game because it's a long way to fall if that's how you look at it, where it's an all or nothing thinking.
7:16
Dr. Greg Smalley's Journey to Authentic Marriage Ministry
What a great story.
Did that have anything to do with you going into the what you're doing now or?
7:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely.
I actually wanted to be a lawyer.
So all through college I was pre law.
Like I just thought that's what I wanted to do.
I felt God called me to do that and then I didn't get into, there was one school that I really wanted to go to.
I didn't get into that one.
7:40
And so someone just said, hey, instead of just going anywhere, why don't you just set out a year once you take some graduate classes, reapply.
I was like, yeah, that's smart.
I ended up at Denver Seminary and I decided to take some counseling classes and do that for a year, reapply.
7:58
And once I got into it, I just fell in love with counseling, with just walking with someone through whatever they're going through.
And so although he never started off going, hey, I want to follow in my dad's footsteps, Once I got into it, I was so drawn to what he had done for all those years because kind of like you guys were saying, what I loved about what my mom and dad did is that they were real.
8:23
They were authentic.
I mean, my dad made his whole living off of telling people how we screwed up as a husband and what he learned from that, what God taught him.
And that was always very appealing to me because who he was at home, who I watched him be as a dad and as a father, well, as a dad and a father and a husband, who, that that was the same person that you saw up on the stage.
8:49
And so there was sometimes you'll talk to pastors, kids who are like, forget church, who my dad was up on, you know, Sunday morning preaching was so far different than who he was at home.
I didn't see that.
I just saw a guy who genuinely loved his wife and his kids and worked hard and was willing to go, Hey, I screwed up here.
9:12
Will you forgive me?
Let's repair this.
And so I was never put off by what he was doing.
And it was amazing just to then travel with him, watching him speak, learning.
And to this day, I mean, my dad's been with the Lord for since 2016.
9:31
And yet I will every event that Aaron and I go and teach at, I still will have people coming up to me and saying, Hey, I heard your dad tell this story and changed my life.
Or I read this book that he did and I love that.
And so definitely watching what he how he showed up as both a professional and as a dad and husband had a huge impact on me going that's I want to do that.
9:57
So as I venture down this similar Rd.
I always told Aaron man if I ever am saying something up on stage that I'm not living out man please confront me.
Not that she ever needed my permission to do that but I just because love that authenticity.
10:16
I loved how he was real in what he taught.
He really tried to live out and that shaped me going.
But if I do this, I want to show up in that same way because my parents didn't have the perfect marriage.
And yet I think they they were always willing to keep growing and becoming stronger together.
10:38
And that's why Aaron and I go, let's go to counseling, you know, let's read a book.
Let's do those things because I don't want my kids to go.
I don't want to get married or I don't want to have a marriage like they have because that's not real.
There are two different people are have two different marriages.
10:54
I don't want that.
10:55
Our First Big Fight: Rating My Wife 9.3
That's.
10:56
Speaker 3
Great.
When you're up on stage or in your books, do you find that there's one really authentic story from your own marriage that people really resonate with?
11:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's fun because we've been doing this now for, gosh, 30 years, is that I'll typically get requests.
I feel like, you know, I'm a DJ at a club or something.
People come up and.
11:20
Speaker 3
Say about whatever.
11:21
Speaker 1
They do and it's I love that.
And so one probably the most requests is when two weeks into our marriage, we're just laying in bed and Aaron just said, Hey, how do you think I'm doing as a wife?
And I was like, fine.
And she's like, no, come on, seriously.
11:38
She's like, how am I doing?
I was like, I don't know.
I mean, you're doing great.
And so she goes, well, look at it this way.
She goes zero to 1010 being the best job, 0 being the worst.
How would you rate me two weeks in?
I mean, come on, what did I know at that time?
Because I walked straight in to go and you know my mind, I'm thinking, you know, well, Jesus would be the only 10.
11:58
So of course I can't rate her the same aggregate Jesus.
And so I, I think I ended up rating her a 9.3.
And Aaron was a total perfectionist when it comes to academics.
She graduated high school with a 4.3 GPA.
12:16
She's finishing her dissertation, so she'll have her doctorate soon.
So she's just this fantastic student.
So to her at 9.3 was failing, like anything below at 98% at 9.8 was failing.
Well, I didn't know that was a SEA student.
12:32
Speaker 3
I was going to say, how did that land?
12:34
Speaker 1
Well, if she starts crying and yeah, not well at all, we get in this big argument.
And so, I mean, as AC student, I was trying to explain that like I had I ever brought that home to my parents at 93% and a even a minus whatever, you know, my parents would have slaughtered the fatted calf.
12:55
I mean, we would have celebrated for a week, but that just we were just very different that way.
And so I think it ended when she was so frustrated because I would just, I dug in and I was like, whatever, I don't remember why I dug in, but she goes, Oh yeah, she goes, why be I may be a 9.3, but at least I'm not a 5 like you are.
13:17
It is AC student that felt actually really right, that felt comfortable and normal.
And So what I love about that story is that it just, it was a foreshadowing of the first five, probably five years of our marriage to where we so poorly handled conflict.
13:37
And it just, it took us a while.
It got so bad that I really thought at one point she was going to leave me.
Hadn't, you know, if she divorced me, I didn't think she wanted to be around me anymore because we're so entrenched in conflict.
And we were doing a good job of learning how to walk through that, how to repair any of that.
13:56
And so that's what I love about that story.
That was our first real big fight as a married couple.
And that lasted a good 5-7 years until we figured it out.
We got help and we learned a lot.
And here we are today, 33 years later.
And we certainly still get into some.
14:13
Yeah, right.
We we still have conflict, but we certainly know how to repair that now.
14:19
Transforming Conflict into Opportunities for Healing and Growth
I think that's important to know and to reiterate, which we've talked about too a lot on this podcast, is a scintillating marriage is not conflict free.
In fact, conflict helps create that scintillation.
It's part of those life's paradoxes, which there are many.
14:36
Speaker 3
But knowing how to repair is vital.
14:40
Speaker 2
Knowing how to repair.
14:42
Speaker 3
The makeup's really nice.
14:44
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's so true, right?
There's an old quote like from the 1700s.
I can't forget.
I forget who it's by, but it's like it basically says couples need to argue because that's how they get to know each other better.
14:59
And I think that's the potential payout is you learn something about you as an individual, about your spouse as an individual and then about you as a couple.
So it's important to your point.
15:11
Speaker 3
I might add it also sometimes can help us learn about ourselves.
It exposes some blind spots that totally unless we dive in and get down to the nitty gritty of huh, I wonder why I said that or what is it that triggered that emotional response to me.
15:30
We sometimes don't understand things about ourselves.
15:34
Speaker 1
Right.
15:34
Speaker 3
That's exactly right.
That kind of thing.
15:36
Speaker 2
You know, sometimes now with when we have conflict, I, I stand back, I go, oh goody.
15:44
Speaker 1
It's this is a way to to.
15:46
Speaker 3
Immediately.
15:47
Speaker 2
Or later.
15:48
Speaker 3
Immediately.
15:48
Speaker 2
No, not.
It's never immediate.
15:51
Speaker 1
All in his.
15:51
Speaker 2
I'm not a you say, yeah, I'm not an alien.
I'm a human.
And in the moment, it's pretty hot.
But when I stand back, I go, oh, this is a chance to learn something new about my wife, which is great.
So anyway, it helps kind of speed up that process.
16:09
Speaker 1
To I learned not to rate her anything less than a 9.8, so that was a good that was worth it.
16:17
Speaker 3
So how did those therapy sessions go then?
Is it all about maybe what you need to work on or is she a little more mature now also and able to see where there's room for growth?
16:29
Speaker 1
What I've loved about when we do therapy now, it's amazing how that there, there were wounds from early on in our marriage that going back in, in repairing those now, not that we didn't repair them back noon or didn't, you know, I mean, whatever we needed to do to move forward.
16:51
But it's been actually really hard, really painful, but really good to be able to go back and just talk about some of these things that we experienced early in our marriage in what we learned owning, you know, for me, owning my parts, owning how I showed up and what I chose to do with that and just to care like it's the repairing for us now around that stuff is this being able to say, you know what?
17:21
That so matters to me that you felt that way.
And if I hear you felt this way and I love that you're telling me that and leaning into that's come up a number of times.
I mean, certainly we're talking about the future and we're talking about how we can continue to grow.
And you know, but there's been something powerful about going back and doing some repair work on some of those early stupid stories that people find super funny.
17:46
But you know, we still carried scars from those things.
I mean, they're, I would say they're a beautiful part of our love story now because we see what they did and how they grew us.
But it's been powerful to go back and lean in and I've learned things I didn't realize.
18:01
Aaron, you felt that way or then it said that to you.
Wow, tell me more about that.
And I'm so glad we've had this therapist guy just threw that because as much as we teach this stuff and I don't know if that'd be a conversation I'd want to have outside of a therapist's office.
18:17
Speaker 3
It does seem like we're not very mature when we first get married, but but yet we hear something that our spouse said to us years ago or a way that they reacted.
And we keep telling ourselves stories as though the growth never happened, as though neither of us have ever changed.
18:34
And I love the language that you just shared, the things that you say to your wife.
I didn't realize you felt that way or man I'm really sorry that happened then.
I never want to hurt you.
Any other phrases that you use that are really helpful to approach looking back at the past?
18:57
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, again, the worst thing that I could do is to either try to explain why, because it's easy to go, hey, when we got married at 23, what on earth did I now?
I was a punk.
I was, I carried baggage in that I hadn't dealt with.
19:14
I mean, I can come up with some really good reasons for all that they're legitimate, but not going there and just being open to what was that like?
How did that impact you?
What was the message?
How did that make you feel about you and about us and in our marriage?
19:34
And and then at the end of the day, just going, I want to care and understand and empathize with that stuff and then own continue to own.
It's not like I've never apologized for that stuff, but it's always fresh opportunity.
Just just to say, you know, Aaron, you know, thank you for being willing to share that and you matter and how you felt mattered.
19:56
And I get it.
That makes sense.
Of course you felt that way versus justifying and saying, geez, come on, I was a kid.
Back then, what did I know?
Just saying, I'm so glad you're sharing this because I I feel so connected to you knowing that.
20:13
And then own again, just saying, yeah, you know what?
I should never said that I should never done that.
I behaved in a way that was wrong.
I own it.
And I want to ask you to forgive me for that.
And she has.
20:28
And but yet I just think going through that again, there's something good about doing that.
Because what I hear, and I'm sure you guys hear this as well, is sometimes when the past comes up, the temptation is to say, hey, whoa, hey, we've already talked about that.
20:46
Why is this coming up now?
I thought we've moved beyond it.
20:50
Speaker 3
It just.
20:50
Speaker 1
It robbed, yeah.
And I think it robs the couple of a beautiful opportunity to lean in and the hearts bringing it up for a reason.
And I used to go, I've dealt with this.
Why do we have to talk about it?
21:05
I would never, ever say that.
Now I would just in my mind go, OK, it's going to be OK.
We're going to get through this.
She loves me, I love her.
There's something in there.
Her heart has brought this up.
And it's an opportunity.
Smalley, just lean in and care.
21:23
I have to soothe my such hope in a lot of ways of just going.
It's got to be all right and we get to a really cool place when I show up that way or as she shows up that way.
21:34
Embracing Curiosity for Deeper Marital Understanding
So it sounds to me like you are practicing the principle of curiosity.
21:42
Speaker 1
Wow, it's a yeah.
Which one of you is the harp player there?
That's beautiful.
21:47
Speaker 3
I love it I.
21:48
Speaker 2
Mean like.
21:50
Speaker 1
And it it's a great principle.
21:51
Speaker 2
It's a great illustration, though really, curiosity means it.
It's such a powerful word, Curiosity.
22:00
Speaker 1
It's the opposite of judgment.
Yeah, which usually gets me into trouble.
Why do you feel that way?
And doesn't who?
Who feels that way?
Why would you be saying it that way?
There's so many ways that we judge each other when we try to have these conversations.
And you're right, if I posture myself with curiosity and it keeps my heart humble, it keeps me open to not being right and being wrong and misunderstand whatever.
22:28
It's just, it's a great principle.
So you're right.
I just never paired it with a heart.
I think I will from now on.
22:36
Speaker 2
And the heavens open.
So I think that we like to say the most important three words that in a relationship are not I love you, but am I wrong?
And I'm not saying I am wrong, I'm asking a question.
22:52
Speaker 1
You're you're open to.
22:53
Speaker 2
The possibility am I wrong?
Because it allows me to avoid shame and it allows her to feel that there is some vulnerability in this connection.
23:05
Speaker 3
And you can have more than one perspective.
23:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, you think about the Proverbs is saying pride leads to conflict.
God's made it clear that a prideful heart will be opposed.
He opposes the proud, and so will my wife.
Every time I show up postured is prideful judging, believing I'm right, all that stuff.
23:29
Versus Yeah, I think curiosity ushers in or is at least more more likely to usher in grace.
Aaron usually gives me grace when I'm being curious and I'm seeking to understand or I'm asking her genuine questions, not leaving her like a lawyer might towards my end or conclusion.
23:49
But, and you're right, I think that's a beautiful posture and it does keep you open.
Your heart stays open when it's humble.
23:56
Speaker 3
I think on occasion we have both been guilty of saying in the past you said this or you did this and my stance at that is usually getting defensive that sure.
24:09
Speaker 2
Wait, that's something we've talked.
24:10
Speaker 3
About that a lot of times.
24:12
Speaker 2
My love, that's my job.
24:15
Speaker 1
I'm a defender as well, so I hear.
24:17
Speaker 2
You, I think, is it all man, just call us defensive, the Four Horsemen.
24:21
Speaker 3
But that's the time I'm defensive as well is when we do say that we're making a judgement because of past history.
And maybe that just means even though we've talked about it and explained and we've agreed that we've grown up and that we've moved on, like I like what you said, there's still a part of our heart that isn't healed in that area.
24:41
And so to just put on that FMDJ voice, like I hear you using and just toning it down a little bit and being curious and exploring, but then also validating that I love you and I, I don't want you to hurt.
25:01
And I'm sorry if I was really stupid back then.
25:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, I because what you're saying, what I so appreciate is that that, yeah, if Aaron is using language that to me feels more accusatory or is telling me like it is.
Yeah, I usually get very defensive.
25:19
But I think one of the things that has probably helped me out more in my life around being defensive with her is when I finally he was like God finally like macked me hard enough in the head to get that.
I remember very clearly hearing from the Lord going, Greg, why do you give Aaron the power to define what is true about you?
25:45
She is not your source of truth.
I am your source of truth.
Because what I realized is that a lot of my defensiveness came from because Aaron felt it, thought it, shared it, experienced it in a certain way.
I just thought it was truth.
And I didn't want that to be true.
26:01
I didn't want how she was describing me, you know, or, or saying what I did or how I made her feel, whatever.
I didn't want that to be true.
I didn't believe that accurately described me.
And so I was going to fight that.
I was going to defend it tooth and nail in until one day I finally was like, why do I get what that's so unfair to her to make her my source of truth?
26:28
I mean legitimately sure if she's feeling something, I'm not going to argue or debate that.
But that it doesn't make it truth.
And what I learned to do is instead of just blindly receiving or accepting simply because she feels it, thinks it, shares it, what if I just hear, take it in and then send that up to the Lord and go, God, what's truth here?
26:52
What are you trying to?
Are you using my wife right now?
Or is this all her stuff?
Because it's true that it could be.
This is her stuff and I don't need to own any of that.
It's probably more likely that God is using her to speak truth.
27:07
But it was a very subtle difference, but a huge difference that I realized I just, I gave her all that power to decide what's true about me.
And it was never her meaning.
It's just that's what I was hearing.
Oh, she felt this or thought this about me.
27:24
So therefore it's true.
Now I got to argue and defend it and debate it versus just going, so tell me what it is that you experienced.
OK, so but here you write, you felt taken advantage of, you felt unimportant, you felt invalid, whatever.
27:40
And then I tell her, so I'm going to take what you just said to the Lord.
And now she's over time, she trusts that I actually will do that and listen.
And I just believe God is such a he's so committed to truth in this in the US understanding truth that he's always been so faithful in my life to.
27:59
I feel like he gives me a peace.
Like Satan's lies are chaotic.
We feel it.
There's a chaos there.
You just it's a there's a darkness, all of that.
But God's truth, boy, when I encounter that, I feel this warmth.
28:14
I feel this calmness, this peace, and I'll go back to her and say, you know what?
Yeah, God's confirming what you're saying now.
I'm totally open now.
I've encountered God's truth in what it's done for me is now I'm really willing to hear her and listen in and lean in because this is not Aaron.
28:34
This is God's truth.
And that took me a long time.
And that's why I was, you know, Scott, not saying you're like this, but that's why I was.
And I still do this.
So I'm just saying I'm still guilty of defending myself.
I just now know I got to step back and, well, I'm making errand the source of my truth.
28:52
I shouldn't do that.
28:54
Speaker 3
I think the other really great thing about what you just shared is that it causes Erin to think, oh, is my judgement truth?
It causes her to look at herself also, and she can do the same thing.
She can explore truth through a that power greater than herself to see if her interpretation of things is that's fair, right?
29:16
And so it totally right.
It does take that judgment and defensiveness and puts it in a pause at least.
29:25
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, if it does, if both of us are willing to go.
OK, God, is this totally my what I'm suggesting to Aaron is that my stuff is that my issues, that my baggage, my wound, my like, whatever.
It's Scott going back to your point, like the just willing to be curious and to ask the questions postures us from pride to humility.
29:47
And again, my experience guys very faithful.
So if we're both doing that, that's awesome.
I can't control her.
I wish I could, but hopefully she's does it when I'm doing that as well.
29:58
Speaker 2
I'm 100% convinced that Jesus Christ taught about the principle of curiosity, but somehow it got left out.
30:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, right.
The Hebrew or Greek word was poorly.
30:09
Speaker 2
Translated.
30:10
Speaker 3
He teaches us to ask and seek, so that in and of itself is curiosity.
30:15
Speaker 2
Because I love the other Empathy, compassion, love, right, charity.
These are all wonderful attributes.
I think curiosity is pretty wonderful too.
And of course it takes these other things too.
But like humility and meekness?
Yep.
30:31
So.
30:32
Speaker 1
I agree We're talking about curiosity as a way in the midst of hey, we're in a conflict or buttons and we got pushed whatever.
So how do we deal?
How do we use curiosity there?
But my goodness, if you and I, we had not talked about this, but if I was to say named one thing that I can help you guys resist drifting and feeling disconnected, feeling like married roommates.
30:59
If I had to choose one thing, I mean, we wrote a whole book on it.
So there's a lot of stuff in there.
But if I was to choose one, I would agree with you and say curiosity, willingness to keep pursuing knowledge and getting updated and staying current with our spouse because we're always changing.
31:19
That's the benefit of a proactive curiosity of man.
What are you thinking about?
What are you dreaming about?
What's going on?
Tell me.
Just staying curious and updating and current.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better, simpler way to to resist the drift in a sense than curiosity.
31:41
Scott, I'm I well, I I would give my vote to you in the word curiosity I.
31:47
Speaker 2
I really, you're making me feel really good right now, Greg, because I I like to.
31:52
Speaker 1
Joke, can you use the heart thing?
31:54
Speaker 2
Yeah, I like I.
31:55
Speaker 1
Like to joke?
There you go, curiosity.
31:58
Speaker 2
I like to joke that on my tombstone it will say he was curious.
32:06
Speaker 1
But what a OK.
But all joking aside though, but there are great values out there that we subscribe to and pursue.
Curiosity is absolutely a great way and why not be defined by that?
32:21
That's going to take you far in a lot of areas.
32:24
Speaker 3
We also say a lot when we know better, we do better.
And so even extending that curiosity to things like you do to spend a day with a therapist or to read books about marriage, just being curious about how to make our marriages better can also help us be more connected and maybe have more insight into what kinds of things need to change, what kinds of things have done more harm than help when we didn't know better.
32:53
Wrapping Up Part 1 and What's Next
Yeah.
32:54
Speaker 1
I agree.
32:55
Speaker 3
Hey everybody.
We're so glad that you've been with us with Doctor Greg Smalley, and this is the end of the first part of our interview with him.
We've loved his wisdom and his humor and his stories especially.
Just wait for next week where he's going to share about the benefits of marriage counseling, even when you think your marriage is good and how to navigate really, really busy lives where you're so exhausted that sometimes it feels like the marriage comes last.
33:20
And we will see you next Friday with the second episode and hope everybody has a really great week.
We'll see you on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
