Episode 115 : Mastering Pleasure: Experts' Guide to Female Anatomy with Cindy Scharkey
Giving Yourself Permission for Pleasure in Marriage
One of the quiet realities we see again and again in long-term marriages is this: many couples can talk about finances, parenting, logistics, and even conflict but freeze when the topic turns to sex. And for women especially, the struggle often runs even deeper. Many don’t just find it hard to talk about sexuality with their partner; they struggle to understand their own sexual experience at all.
In a recent episode of Marriage IQ, we had the privilege of talking with Cindy Sharkey, an OB-GYN nurse with nearly four decades of experience working closely with women. What makes Cindy’s perspective so powerful is that she’s been “boots on the ground,” hearing the same questions, concerns, and quiet confessions from women across generations. Over time, this became her life’s work: helping women especially in midlife understand their bodies, reclaim pleasure, and release shame.
What emerged from this conversation wasn’t a list of techniques or quick fixes. It was something far more foundational.
The Sexual Relationship Most Women Were Never Taught to Have
Cindy shared a truth that stops many people in their tracks: our first sexual relationship is with ourselves and most women were never taught that. Many women grew up in environments that encouraged them to tamp down curiosity, desire, and bodily awareness. Some were raised in purity culture or other high-control belief systems. Others simply absorbed the unspoken message that “good women” don’t think too much about sex. Over time, this leads many women to disconnect from their own bodies, to mistrust physical sensations, and to carry shame they can’t quite name.
Cindy uses the metaphor of a garden to describe sexual identity. Every person has one, whether they’ve tended it or ignored it. Over time, beliefs, experiences, and messages both helpful and harmful take root. Some things flourish. Others become weeds. And many women have never been given permission to even look at what’s growing there. The hopeful part? It’s never too late. Unlike a physical garden, a sexual garden can be restored at any stage of life. Awareness alone can begin to loosen shame and create space for curiosity, compassion, and growth.
Why Education Is a Pathway to Freedom, Not Embarrassment
One of the most eye-opening parts of this episode was Cindy’s emphasis on basic anatomical education. Many women young and old have never truly been taught how their bodies work. They may know the names of body parts, but not their function, structure, or capacity for pleasure. This lack of education often leads women to believe something is “wrong” with them. For example, many women assume they should orgasm through penetration alone. When they don’t, they quietly carry the belief that they are broken. In reality, research consistently shows that most women require clitoral stimulation in order to experience orgasm. This isn’t a failure. It’s biology.
When women learn how their bodies are designed, shame begins to loosen its grip. Education doesn’t make sex mechanical it makes pleasure accessible. It gives women language, confidence, and options. And that knowledge becomes something couples can share, rather than something women carry alone.
When Desire Isn’t the Problem Pleasure Is
One of the most freeing reframes Cindy offered was this: if sex isn’t pleasurable, it won’t be desirable. Many women are labeled as “low desire,” when in reality they’ve been having sex that hurts, feels disconnected, or doesn’t meet their needs. Over time, their bodies learn to brace instead of open. Desire doesn’t disappear because something is wrong with them it disappears because their nervous system is protecting them.
Painful sex, lack of arousal, or emotional disconnection will naturally dampen desire. Addressing pleasure, safety, comfort, and curiosity often restores desire far more effectively than pressure or guilt ever could.
Talking About Sex Is Risky and Worth It
Sexual communication may be one of the most vulnerable forms of communication in marriage. It touches identity, rejection, longing, and fear. That’s why so many couples avoid it altogether. But as Cindy reminded us, talking about sex is far easier than trying to read minds. The key isn’t dumping everything at once. It’s starting small. One topic. One question. One curiosity. And ideally, having those conversations outside the bedroom on a walk, over coffee, or during a quiet drive.
Framing matters. Beginning with desire for connection rather than criticism opens doors. Asking “What helps you feel close to me?” or “What do you enjoy?” invites collaboration rather than defensiveness.
Why Affection Often Comes Before Desire
A theme that resonated deeply in this episode was the role of affection. Many women long for physical touch that doesn’t immediately escalate to sex hugs, kisses, tenderness, presence. Without that foundation, jumping straight into sexual activity can feel abrupt or emotionally unsafe. Affection cultivates the garden. It softens the soil. It creates the conditions where desire can emerge naturally instead of being forced.
For many couples, increasing everyday affection long hugs, lingering kisses, playful touch can dramatically change the emotional tone of intimacy. These gestures don’t guarantee sex, but they often make it possible.
Intention Is What Keeps Intimacy Alive Over Time
Perhaps the most consistent thread throughout the conversation was intention. Great sex in long-term marriages isn’t accidental. Research shows that couples who describe their sex lives as extraordinary are often older, more communicative, and deeply intentional.
They plan. They adapt. They stay curious. They accept that bodies change, seasons shift, and desire doesn’t always arrive spontaneously. Instead of waiting for it to “just happen,” they give it attention. That might look like scheduling intimacy, flirting again, trying something new together, or simply being present during the sex they’re already having. Presence, Cindy reminded us, is essential for pleasure. Sensation lives in the present moment. If the mind isn’t there, the body struggles to be.
Cultivating a Sexual Garden Is a Lifelong Practice
Sexual intimacy isn’t a one-and-done achievement. It’s an ongoing conversation with ourselves and with our partner. The garden metaphor works because it allows for change. Some seasons require pruning. Others invite planting something new. What worked at one stage of life may not work at another. And that’s not failure. That’s growth giving yourself permission for pleasure doesn’t mean chasing perfection. It means choosing curiosity over shame, intention over avoidance, and connection over silence.
If couples are willing to tend the garden together patiently, imperfectly, and honestly the harvest can be richer than they ever imagined.
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Hello everybody, and welcome back to another educational and scintillating episode of Marriage IQ God.
It's kind of interesting as we work with couples, especially those who are in long term relationships, how little a lot of them are able to talk to their partner about sexuality and how a lot of women especially struggle to understand it themselves, to have the language for it.
1:35
And today we've got the unique experience.
Sometimes we've talked with doctors, sometimes we've talked with therapists about this, but today we have a nurse with us who's been an OB guy nurse and she's been in this field for nearly four decades.
And the really awesome thing about that is it's the nurse who women feel most comfortable talking with, I think.
1:57
I would agree with that and females too.
2:00
She has boots on the ground experience with hearing what the biggest concerns are with women when it surrounds sexuality and that eventually has become her specialty.
So Cindy Sharkey is here with us today and she has worked with especially women in midlife to educate them about how to better access sexual pleasure.
2:22
So welcome Cindy to Marriage IQ.
2:27
Speaker 1
Oh, and the clapping.
Thanks so much for having me.
2:30
Speaker 3
So Cindy, besides being a nurse, besides being an educator, she's also an author and a podcaster.
She's had the podcast for five years now, Permission for Pleasure, and she also has a book by that same name, Permission for Pleasure, Tending to Your Sexual Garden.
2:49
We are really looking forward to her adding to the information that we teach our listeners here on Marriage IQ about how to have healthy, strong, scintillating marriages.
3:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, welcome.
3:03
Speaker 1
Thank you.
3:04
Speaker 2
Well, you know, here at Marriage IQ, we want to find out a little bit about how you got into this space.
What were some of the points in your life that like, OK, I'm going to do this.
What's that passion point for you?
3:19
Speaker 1
I think for me it was a combination of all my clinical practice and then I have three daughters of my own.
I had a lot of girls in my house for many, many, many years with three daughters.
And I just came to the point in my life, I think where I wanted to pursue the things that really brought me energy.
3:44
So I left clinical practice and started full time education, teaching, writing the book, started a podcast, speaking, doing workshops because I feel like women, when they have the right education and tools, they find a lot more freedom and pleasure.
4:03
Speaker 3
Very well said.
4:04
Speaker 2
I really like that.
And I like that you're taking this approach of educating because, you know, I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks this, but it appears that there are a lot of voices that say, well, if you just wouldn't be so oppressed, you would automatically know what to do as a woman, right?
4:25
And so I think I, I really like it where we get beyond, OK, the men are oppressing women type thing and women can actually start to learn how to empower themselves and in this case sexually, right?
4:40
Speaker 1
Well, in our first sexual relationship is with ourselves.
Mm hmm.
And I don't think most women were taught that.
4:47
Speaker 3
Is that part of what you teach now?
4:48
Speaker 1
It is.
I feel like that's why I'd wrote my book the way I wrote it.
I feel like everybody wants an easy button to figure out how to make sex great or why they don't like sex or whatever the things are.
5:04
And really it comes down to the roots of what we've like.
I call it your garden, but what we've ingested, swallowed, been mis educated about or educated about what we believe, what our values are and it's all in there.
5:20
Speaker 3
I love the metaphor of the garden.
Can you explain why you chose that and how you think that best illustrates are growing into that sexual?
5:30
Speaker 1
Identity, Sure.
I'm a gardener, so it probably started there.
I like to grow things.
I pull the weeds, I do the things I like what blooms.
And there's a sensuality piece to that.
5:47
That is one of the things I enjoy about gardening.
And Emily Nagoski, who's, you know, written a lot of the science, made it available to women, also uses this metaphor.
And I think it just helps people to see it as a growing living thing and normal and normal, right?
6:06
And so I do think that there is truth to the fact that we have things in our garden that are no longer serving us.
And how do we get to the roots of what we want planted there, what we want to let go of?
What do we want to uproot?
6:21
What are we going to want to untangle?
And that's how I use the garden metaphor.
6:27
Speaker 3
Do you find in your work that some women have ignored their garden virtually for their whole lives?
6:34
Speaker 1
I do, I do, You know.
The beautiful thing, though, Heidi, is that it's never too late.
6:40
Speaker 3
It's not like a physical.
6:41
Speaker 2
Garden, I'm thinking.
6:42
Speaker 3
I would.
6:43
Speaker 2
Imagine that there are quite a few women out there who don't even know they have a garden, like they don't know it.
And I think that's part of the thing and it's a big part of what we do.
Or we have 4 cornerstones.
One of them is identity.
That's the first one.
6:59
And I think if you kind of start knowing who you are, you start seeing these blind spots, right?
And people like you who can educate and help kind of bring some insight on, hey, yeah, you do have a garden.
7:15
Let's look at it this way.
7:16
Speaker 3
And your sexual identity as part of that garden.
7:20
Speaker 1
I do think a lot of women, Scott, sorry, I think a lot of women are trained up in a way to tamp down this garden, to not recognize their normal natural sexuality, arousal, desire, to not be embodied and to not trust their body.
7:38
This is what I find when I meet with women and do workshops these themes over and over.
7:43
Speaker 2
Do you find this more in religious women or does it not matter?
7:47
Speaker 1
I would say high control religions especially not all religious, just a lot of conservative background to people.
High control cultures.
Same.
But I do see it probably the most in high controlled religion.
8:03
Yeah.
8:04
Speaker 3
And what does that look like?
What kind of things do you think within that cultural environment have led to ignoring their garden?
8:13
Speaker 1
Yes, this is a very big question.
You're right.
I'll give you a couple examples.
I mean, I grew up in purity culture, so I'll speak to that piece that those ideas around suppressing anything sexual, that's not OK, that's not healthy or normal or that it's bad.
8:35
There's a lot of shame that comes out of these kinds of teachings and it all that shame gets kind of buried in someone's garden, right?
For example, normal arousal, let's say.
So a young girl who feels normal sexual arousal and then feels shame for that.
8:54
So then what happens as they get into relationship and they choose to be in a partner relationship.
What we can see is that then they don't know how to recognize their own normal arousal because they have not allowed themselves to in the past.
And it's not something that they're have allowed themselves or give themselves permission to do.
9:13
That's a kind of a just a near down to one example, but it is what we see.
9:20
Speaker 2
But Cindy, though, let's back up a little bit because religion is a big part of a lot of people's life.
Now, this is not a religious podcast per SE, but I would imagine quite a few religious people listen.
So those kinds of teachings, I mean, they're built on historical stories and.
9:38
Speaker 3
Just text.
9:39
Speaker 2
Yeah, religious texts.
9:40
Speaker 3
Or the interpretation of religious.
9:42
Speaker 2
Texts and I think some people, a lot of people do find a lot of meaning out of religious texts and certain types of rituals and expectations, boundaries, religious boundaries.
I think that you start bumping up into things like that, right?
9:59
Like is there a way to do everything to still be religious, to still feel like you're part of that religious community and feel your sexual feelings and feel what it's like to have pleasure, sexual pleasure?
You know, it's a very hard, difficult question 'cause I think a lot of people do, you know, a lot of women, like you said, they don't know, they have a lot of shame around it, right?
10:23
Because that's what they've been taught in their childhood.
And for a lot of guys too.
For a lot of guys.
I mean, is there a way to explore this without like, chucking your religion?
10:35
Speaker 1
Oh 100% yes absolutely.
I think that if we can learn to, especially with kids like younger, educate them about what's true and without shame, then hopefully they can go on perhaps normal healthy sex lives.
10:58
Now that's a tall order because people are so used to using shame as the way to control.
11:08
Speaker 3
Give me an example.
11:10
Speaker 1
Well, let's take masturbation for you want to use hot topics or what do you want to do here?
Absolutely.
So let's take masturbation, for example.
So they like what we see with young children is a normal natural curiosity about their bodies, just as babies find their toes and they're so excited and they're like, wow, this is so exciting.
11:34
You could tell by their face that they're delighted, right?
Then they will also find their genitals, and it feels different in their bodies.
But many children, even young children, like this, where this is not erotic, this is just curiosity.
They will find their genitals and be slapped or shamed or disciplined for the natural curiosity.
11:57
This is where I'm bringing it all the way back.
But these are the kinds of things we can do differently, I think, to not foster shame.
12:06
Speaker 3
So if we have any listeners who have younger children, what's a better way to do that?
12:11
Speaker 1
Just call it for what it is.
Oh, you found your penis, you found your vulva, and it feels different than, say, your elbow or your nose.
And it's OK.
That's our bodies have different feelings and we feel different things.
Now, if they're humping their blanket at the Thanksgiving table, OK, well, then we got to talk about privacy versus, you know, what's OK with people and what's not and get into a next step conversation.
12:36
But toddlers and young ones, you know, all they know is my body and does it belong to me?
12:44
Speaker 3
Do you think this feeds into especially young women who are struggling so much with body shame these days?
12:54
Speaker 1
Shame loves the dark and so many people, all of us, you know, we listen to what shame says in the dark.
And what I've found is that when we bring it into the light and either talk about it with someone or get counsel about it or bring it out of the dark, there can be a lot of healing with that shame.
13:19
And so I guess I say that to be hopeful because a lot of people may be listening, think that's too late for me or this isn't never going to change.
And I believe that.
13:30
Speaker 2
Never too late, right?
13:32
Speaker 1
It's never too late.
I don't believe that, yeah.
13:34
Speaker 3
So I would love to explore as you're speaking with women in a healthcare setting and especially in the education route that you've gone more recently, what are some of the biggest barriers that you have seen to women being able to prioritize their own pleasure, learn about their bodies, and improve their sex lives within their marital relationship?
14:02
Speaker 1
Well, I pretty much carry around a clitoris model of some kind everywhere I go because most people don't know their anatomy.
That's just the truth of the matter.
So people might know that they have a, you know, a vulva, right?
14:20
And they may understand that they have a clitoris, but they don't understand that the clitoris has a whole structure behind, underneath the surface, so to speak.
And so I think it does start with education, Heidi.
I bring my models everywhere I go.
14:36
And it doesn't matter if women are 22 or 82, the majority have no idea and they have never seen anything like it and did not know their body parts in that way.
14:47
Speaker 2
Yeah, you're right.
The the clitoris, the vast majority of it is hidden.
It's internal, but the guys.
14:54
Speaker 3
Turn that back around again and show them.
14:56
Speaker 1
Well, and you're a physician, Scott, so you know, it wasn't, it's not even taught in medical school.
There's just a lot of misinformation and you know, people don't have the information.
They don't know that the clitoris is a whole structure, that all of this is erectile tissue for pleasure, just like a penis.
15:14
It's or, but it's organized differently, the bulbs and the legs, and it's all there to access.
And its function is pleasure as far as we know so far.
15:25
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's quite symbolic actually, because all you see externally is a very small part of that clitoris.
And so I don't know, is that part of the reason why women just they think, oh, it's so small?
It's not, but it isn't.
It's much bigger and it it gets bigger even still when they're aroused.
15:43
Speaker 1
Yes, erectile tissue it is.
15:46
Speaker 3
And has more nerve endings than a man's penis.
15:49
Speaker 2
Twice the nerve endings.
We did an episode on the sexual capacity of females and I kind of felt ripped off by the end of that.
I'm like, jeez.
16:03
Speaker 3
But most of us don't access it.
No, I don't know how to access it.
16:08
Speaker 1
Yes, or don't experiment and try, you know, to don't know to.
I mean, one of the number one things I debunk when I'm speaking with women is they are so sure something's wrong with them if they don't reach orgasm through penetration alone.
16:25
Speaker 2
Well.
16:26
Speaker 1
I'm sure you talked about this on your show, right?
16:28
Speaker 3
We can't enough.
Please go ahead time.
16:30
Speaker 2
To talk about it again.
16:31
Speaker 1
So let's let's get our model out again.
You guys thought this was going to be, you know.
16:36
Speaker 3
I love the model, this is great.
16:38
Speaker 1
When we have penetration to the in the vagina alone, without any pairing of clitoral stimulation or other techniques that can increase access to all parts of the clitoris, the majority of women don't orgasm from penetration alone.
16:57
Speaker 3
That's true.
They may go their whole lives not knowing that and think they're broken their whole lives.
17:02
Speaker 1
Exactly, so we need to keep saying it out loud so that they know and then giving them tools to try if they really that's really a desire for them that they want to.
I want to orgasm with penetration.
So what can we do?
So I mean, I have a whole thing about that and that's research.
17:19
You people can read about the four techniques.
It's a little hard without demos though.
17:24
Speaker 3
We do video podcasting on Spotify and on YouTube, so anybody who wants to push pause on their Apple podcast or Spotify audio or any of the other things you're using, if you want to see what Cindy is demonstrating and educating us on here with her models, which are fantastic, switch over to one of those other two platforms.
17:46
Speaker 2
Sure.
17:47
Speaker 1
So this is from OMGS, their platform, their research with so many women and they freely shared it with everybody.
But pairing clitoral stimulation to the glance clitoris, the head of the clitoris, along with penetration, it's going to increases your chances of more arousal, more stimulation and higher chances of orgasm.
18:10
Speaker 2
So at the same time, right, you're doing.
18:12
Speaker 1
At the same time, so either with your fingers, with your positioning, with a toy, adding clitoral stimulation, pairing it together is one of your keys.
The other one is shallowing.
Shallowing is where the penetration doesn't go all the way in, it's shallow, so it just stays on a little bit on the outside.
18:35
A lot of that for some women accesses more parts of the clitoris and they find that arousal will lead them more to orgasm.
18:46
Speaker 3
I've never heard that.
18:48
Speaker 1
Yeah.
18:48
Speaker 2
So you're saying shallowing is with the vibrator or with?
18:52
Speaker 1
It could be any.
It's a vibrator, A penis, yeah.
18:56
Speaker 3
So every woman is different and I understand from speaking with some women it's more painful when the penetration is deep.
So doing it more shallow combined with the clitoral stimulation is what you're saying?
19:11
Speaker 1
Yes or yeah.
I'm so glad you brought up pain, because before we move forward, let's talk about using lubrication, a good lubrication for sex.
So this is another thing.
They call me the Lube Fairy, so don't get me started.
19:27
Speaker 2
Like, no, I agree.
I'm just saying like, like you're, you're totally right.
We did.
19:31
Speaker 1
Not no, I'm just, I'm just teasing and also I just I can't believe how many people don't know about using Lube for sex and also have bought into the myth that women getting wet is the sign that a woman is turned on and wants sex.
19:50
Speaker 2
Yes, we could spend a whole podcast on that one.
Thanks to Emily Nagowski on that one, right?
19:56
Speaker 1
Totally.
And I do think as women go through different seasons in life, that lubrication can shift and change.
And if they've never used a Lube?
Previously, what I find is they come up into these seasons, especially hormonal shifts or aging, staging, pregnancy, postpartum, I mean, anything like this, they find that their lubrication changes and then they start gutting out what I call gutting out sex because they just think, oh, I'm that just, that's the way it's going to be now.
20:29
When in fact, using Lube will provide the lubrication that they need so that they don't experience pain possibly.
20:37
Speaker 3
What do you mean when you're talking gutting out?
They get rid of it, or they just have.
20:41
Speaker 1
Painful sex.
They just power through it.
Yeah.
They don't need to.
No.
No.
And you mentioned depth of penetration.
I mean the only thing I've seen clinically that is helpful for that, especially as as far as AIDS is the O nut rings.
21:00
I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they're silicone rings and there's pairs of three, six, however you want, and you can moderate the depth of the penis with these rings.
21:13
Speaker 3
I've not heard of that either.
See, this is where we have a nurse on.
21:16
Speaker 1
I wish I had them out.
This is like all.
21:18
Speaker 2
Right, so let me you can see you're putting these rings in so to keep the penis from going further.
21:25
Speaker 1
You're putting the rings on the penis to keep it from penetrating farther than is comfortable.
21:33
Speaker 2
OK, I gotcha.
21:34
Speaker 1
So there are a lot of women who have pain with deep penetration, and this is the one tool that I've seen out there.
I mean, the pelvic PTS do share about it because they have so many clients with Bain, but a lot of other people don't know about it.
21:50
I don't know anything else quite like it.
So that's an O nut rings.
21:54
Speaker 2
O nut rings.
21:56
Speaker 1
Yeah, from the pelvic people.
We love this.
Isn't this fun?
Yeah.
Yeah.
22:01
Speaker 2
Look, Cindy, you're, you're already, you are kicking our butt here, right?
22:05
Speaker 1
It's not a kicking butt.
It's a it's a nurse talking like a nurse, OK?
Because this is the thing, you know, painful sex is not pleasurable sex unless you're choosing for pain.
OK?
I'm just saying a lot of people are having unwanted, painful sex, right?
22:23
Speaker 2
Yes.
22:24
Speaker 3
Which then really colors their attitudes towards sex, their desire to even engage in it well.
22:33
Speaker 2
I think like this brings up a point here that I just, I want to slip this in because we've talked about this in other episodes where women do tend to go through a lot of paradoxical experiences.
I'm speaking only as a man, I'm not a woman, but I can see how this could be problematic for women, especially wanting to learn about their sexual identity and what makes them helps them feel better.
22:56
It's because they're dealing with so many things that are painful, like penetration can be painful.
Yeah, there are menstrual periods, vaginal dryness, all these things that go into that sexual experience.
23:09
Speaker 3
Why we talk about.
23:10
Speaker 2
It so I think it can lead to a lot of ambivalence.
I have a daughter who does not like it me calling it confusion because women are never confused, but they she want to make sure that that I knew that, but I mean ambivalence.
23:24
Speaker 3
So what other barriers are there to having the kind of sexual experience in your experience with working with women?
23:33
Speaker 1
Well, we're talking about pain, but also just not having sex that's pleasurable.
So there's so much around low desire women and let's let's just call this out.
23:49
If you're having sex that's not worth wanting.
If you're having sex that's not pleasurable, you're going to be hard pressed to have desire for that kind of sex.
So perhaps it's not a desire issue, perhaps it's a pleasure issue.
24:09
Speaker 2
I hear you.
That's really.
24:11
Speaker 3
Good.
What kinds of experiences might lead to that?
Is that, for example, their husband is not gentle and kind, or he's worried more about pleasing himself or past abuse?
24:28
I mean, what kinds of things contribute to that?
24:31
Speaker 1
I mean, any and all and also lack of education.
I just think that so many of the women that come to me for consults or I meet in workshops, they have a willing partner.
Of course, there are these difficult barriers with abuse.
24:47
And I mean, we know that statistics on this.
So anyone listening would be like, well, hey, these things are definitely big breaks for people.
If there's been trauma or abuse or molestation in the past and there's a lot of non educated people and not having education around the anatomy, how desire really works, how desire can change, how our bodies change and how to accommodate that, how to spark desire when it doesn't tap you on the shoulder anymore.
25:24
You know, we could do hours and hours about this.
There's just a lot of everyone thinking that somehow you don't have to practice or work at sex, but it should just be natural, you know, that it just should happen.
25:40
And thus many, many people it's circle down here to don't talk about sex and the relationship.
And talking about sex makes for good sex.
25:51
Speaker 3
Do you think for husband and wife partners to work together on this?
If they're listening to this podcast and they're like, we got a lot to learn still, is it more effective if they talk about it and work and explore and learn together?
26:10
Or if a woman just does it on her own and then shows up in her bedroom more empowered sexually.
26:17
Speaker 2
It's a great question.
26:19
Speaker 1
It is a good question and I think probably it's a bit of both.
However, if there's a known issue in the relationship or perhaps the most common thing is, you know, there's a desire discrepancy in the relationship.
26:36
One wants sex more than the other.
Of course, two people are not going to want to have sex at the same time every time.
However, if we don't learn to talk about these things in relationship, it it is really easier to learn how to talk about sex in the relationship than it is to read minds.
26:58
Speaker 3
Yeah, sexual communication is something that we've talked about a bit on here.
27:02
Speaker 2
It's not easy to talk about sex with your spouse, and that's after doing this for a long time.
Sure, I'm just being honest.
27:14
Speaker 1
Totally.
And you know what?
It's uncomfortable.
27:15
Speaker 2
I'm a different person than she is.
I think it's true for a lot of couples, right?
Yes, it's hard.
27:23
Speaker 3
Well, and I think you add to that the fact that for men, their sexual organs are on the outside of their body.
They're dealing with them thinking about them all day long.
And for women whose our internal, we don't see it.
27:38
We don't think about it as much.
For a lot of women, we don't have the spontaneous desire that men have in a lot of circumstances.
Out of sight, out of mind.
27:48
Speaker 2
7030 my love.
27:50
Speaker 3
Yes, you're 3535, I said.
In a lot of cases.
27:53
Speaker 2
Yeah, do do have that.
We don't want to leave them out.
27:56
Speaker 1
It is a majority of of men that have more spontaneous desire.
However, there are a lot of women who have higher desire in the relationship than a male partner.
This is in the research so.
28:09
Speaker 3
Do you know?
28:10
Speaker 1
In those I don't know the stats, but I'd surprisingly higher than you'd think.
28:15
Speaker 2
Well, actually we agree with this.
We've said that the female sexual desire is actually about equal with men's.
It's how we interpret and define that desire.
So and the other thing is we don't want to start labeling people.
28:32
Oh, you're low desire that way.
You're there forever.
Like I can't pull out of this.
I can't change so I agree.
I think this whole low desire thing I we should just give it the boot.
28:43
Speaker 3
So teach us about it, Cindy.
28:45
Speaker 1
I agree.
I let's give it the boot and let's circle back to your question, which is so important for couples listening together and you have couple listenership with this kind of podcast, right?
29:00
Speaker 3
Certainly some of them, yeah.
29:01
Speaker 1
Let's hope if you're listening and thinking well, she's just doesn't have the desire I have instead.
Can you think we want to have a thriving intimate sex life and relationship?
29:21
What can we do to help that happen?
How can I come to this as a we issue that we want to pursue and make delicious whatever beautiful rather than you have an issue or it's all about him or I these kinds of things.
29:47
You know it is a together.
29:49
Speaker 2
So we're reverse engineering this, right?
We're instead of saying, hey, what's wrong here?
But let's look at the end, say, OK, this is what I want.
How do I get there?
Let's go backwards and make plan go backwards.
30:05
Speaker 3
What do you find helpful besides just switching that shift in our mind from?
30:10
Speaker 2
Well, I think that's.
30:11
Speaker 3
Me versus her mind shift.
30:14
Speaker 1
To we.
30:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, and and verbalizing that, right.
30:17
Speaker 1
Yes.
And leaning into that uncomfortable, I mean, Scott called it out, but that's for most couples.
Like it's uncomfortable to talk about sex especially if you haven't talked about it, so you have to be OK being uncomfortable.
30:33
Speaker 2
We have marriage goals every year that we do for the year and one of the marriage goals is to talk about sex once a week.
And so it's a goal.
And even at that, it's still like starting process, right?
30:47
Speaker 1
And you're normal.
This is normal.
This is how it is with most couples, right?
But.
30:52
Speaker 2
We're trying to be intentional about it, and I think a lot of people aren't, but I think let's be intentional about talking about sex with our spouse.
What specifically do you think you like or I like or we both like or that, you know, surrounding, you know, the time of day or planning it, scheduling it, whatever.
31:13
There's so many things that you can talk about.
31:16
Speaker 1
All of this.
Where's the thing where I press the clapping?
Yeah, Where is that?
Thank you.
Let me just give you a couple tips if you're listening, that we know work well here.
It's easier to talk about sex not in the bedroom unless we're dealing with consent or pain.
31:35
Speaker 2
OK.
31:36
Speaker 1
Or logistics of like, oh, I need to move my knee or oh, my foot went to sleep or OK, right.
But if we want to talk about our sex life together or perhaps we want to try a new position, or perhaps we just learned about pairing and we're thought could we get like a little couples vibrator and try that?
31:55
OK, whatever it is when you're walking around the block, next time, when you're in the car alone driving, when you're sitting over tea or coffee together, talk about one thing, not the bucket of things.
32:11
One thing, one thing, one thing at a time and frame it.
Just like all good communication with a positive, I really want to enjoy our sex life together or I want to feel intimacy together or whatever you want to say and I enjoy that and I desire you.
32:35
Desire is a big turn on being desired.
32:37
Speaker 3
As it is and.
32:38
Speaker 1
Communicating that, right?
And then, and I was listening to this podcast or I read this girl's book or whatever and I was thinking about this.
What do you think about that?
Start simple.
32:51
Speaker 2
That's not an ask.
You're like, hey, this, what do you think about this?
What's your opinion?
32:57
Speaker 1
Totally.
Let's talk about it together, right?
33:00
Speaker 3
I think in that conversation it's important, too, to understand that if you say, what do you think about that?
And they say, oh, I'm not comfortable with that.
Rather than just shutting it down, just saying, OK, maybe we can talk about it again another time.
33:16
Speaker 1
Love that.
33:17
Speaker 3
Because as time goes on and we become more sexually intimate and we have a more scintillating sexual relationship, and as women we understand and men we understand our sexual identity better, we may be open to things that other times in our lives we wouldn't have been.
33:37
Speaker 1
And one of your big things, right from your research is intention, intentionality, correct?
33:43
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's true.
I I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking like.
33:52
Speaker 1
What are you thinking?
33:53
Speaker 2
I just this type of communication, Cindy is the most intimate type of communication that I can think of at this moment.
Anyway.
It is highly sensitive.
So the risk of something going bad is a lot higher, right?
34:14
It's like you invest in these really risky, you know, stocks, right?
The higher the risk, the higher the reward.
It's just how it works.
I didn't make the rules of life, but that's how it is.
The higher the risk, the higher the potential reward, but also the higher the fallout.
34:33
So when we're talking like there is a very, I think an intentional desire to be extra sensitive to my partner desires and comments and extra strong in my own sense of of being right.
34:59
So if by chance something gets flung out that I would otherwise consider hurtful, I just need to be prepared.
Just go into this being really prepared to.
35:11
Speaker 3
Not take it personally or as rejection.
35:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.
To not take it personally, just to be very, very prepared because you can say sexual communication all day long and that's important.
But when you get down to the nuts and bolts of this sexual communication, it is very, very different than the vast majority of other communications and maybe every other communication that we do is husband and wife because of that huge risk that you're taking.
35:42
Speaker 1
And the risk of your partner not responding to your ask.
35:48
Speaker 2
Right.
35:50
Speaker 1
You don't want to be further disappointed.
35:52
Speaker 2
Again, disappointment can roll off me and you know, it's like, OK, let's roll, let's live life and maybe come back later or whatever.
But I think that is true for a lot of people.
36:06
Speaker 1
Well, let's dial this back to maybe a little, maybe not as hot of a topic like, say, affection.
36:15
Speaker 3
OK.
36:15
Speaker 1
OK so the reason I want to use this example is because, and I use this in my book with the whole scenario with a woman because this is one of the most common things I hear from women.
I want more affection that does not lead to sex in my relationship.
36:34
Speaker 3
So.
36:35
Speaker 2
I hear that a lot.
So that's do you think that's true for like the vast majority of women?
36:40
Speaker 1
I don't know about vast majority but a lot of women.
So every time I do a role play up on the stage, this is the one that gets them going.
Because many women have a hard time switching from You haven't touched me, kissed me, hugged me, or even lovingly patted me and now you want me to jump into having sex?
37:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's a hard switch.
37:07
Speaker 1
Flip that switch and that becomes a real issue.
37:11
Speaker 3
Yeah.
37:12
Speaker 1
I hear this day in and day out, and yet I'm circling back to the conversation, Scott, it's we don't want to ask for the affection we want and need because it's vulnerable.
It could go sideways.
37:29
We could be rejected.
I mean, all of these things are true.
And so we don't ask.
And so it continues.
And so desire plummets.
And so we start with that bristle feeling when our partner touches this, like, don't touch me because I'm not having sex right now.
37:46
You know what I mean?
Do you see how this goes?
It's just this cycle.
Both.
37:49
Speaker 2
Sides, wait a minute.
37:50
Speaker 1
Both sides?
Uh huh.
37:52
Speaker 2
You're saying that women for women, their most intimate conversations revolve around affection?
No, and not sex.
38:02
Speaker 1
No, I'm circling this back to make it less volatile here to give you an example of, you know, we think it's hard to talk about sex.
We don't even talk about affection, right?
So what I'm saying is start easy and simple with little things.
38:23
Start with one thing at a time and try your best not to get your feelings hurt, but also perhaps ask the question, what do you need and want for us to feel intimate together with your partner and hope that they will reciprocate?
38:42
What do you need and want to feel more intimate together and have it be a back and forth conversation.
And if the affection is the problem, if more affection is needed, this is a high, this is a high topic.
38:57
Then talk about how you can institute more affection.
Use the Gottman's six second kiss.
You know it's kiss for six seconds every day.
Hug for 30 seconds every day, make out every night at least for a minute.
You know, whatever couples want to jump to.
39:17
How can we have this kind of sex without starting back here with the things that are needed to grow the garden, so to speak?
39:26
Speaker 3
Creating those beginning types of things rather than just expecting a harvest of.
39:33
Speaker 2
Right.
Yeah, with.
39:34
Speaker 3
Pumpkins and large items.
39:37
Speaker 2
Yeah, what I hear you saying here, Cindy, is that women do tend to look at affection more intimately because you said you you talked to a lot of women where that's non sexual affection.
39:53
I'm going to speak for a whole boatload of men right now.
39:58
Speaker 1
Please do.
39:59
Speaker 2
Because I consider myself, I'm a very devoted, loyal husband.
But I also have biology that I can't like, unwind or change.
And men are going to, yes, go from zero to 100 just like that.
40:18
Like a lot of the time I'm not speaking for all men, but the whole affection, it's so it's not even on our minds.
40:26
Speaker 3
Wow, I've heard that statement before.
40:29
Speaker 2
What?
40:30
Speaker 3
For us, sometimes sex is not even on our minds.
40:35
Speaker 1
And there we have it and.
40:37
Speaker 2
There it is.
40:37
Speaker 3
Garden has to be planted in order for us to So when we're talking about sexual communication, affection needs to be part of that conversation well.
40:48
Speaker 1
For a lot of people.
40:49
Speaker 2
Is you?
You probably need to be bringing it up because it's not on my radar.
That's what I'm saying.
40:55
Speaker 3
Well, you are quite affectionate.
I would be bringing it up if you weren't.
41:01
Speaker 2
Oh, OK, well, I.
41:04
Speaker 1
But this is beautiful because for those listening, perhaps you feel more like Scott or maybe you feel more like Heidi, or maybe it's just some version of this.
But this just you 2 actually modeling how to communicate that is beautiful.
41:21
This is where it starts.
You know, Heidi's saying you're actually pretty affectionate, you know, and you saying it's not even on my radar.
This, this is the truth of how we communicate, right?
And yet we often don't have these kinds of conversations.
41:37
So thank you for modeling.
41:39
Speaker 3
Well, I kissed him quite passionately last night.
We'd been out of town, got home trying to decide.
41:44
Speaker 2
Whoa, woman, where are you going with this?
41:48
Speaker 3
And it was simply cultivating the garden.
It doesn't have to be waiting for our husbands to passionately kiss us.
We can make that step.
41:59
Speaker 2
So the garden was tended before that passionate kiss happened, is that what you're saying?
Yes, because we had a great weekend.
Yeah.
OK, Yeah.
42:09
Speaker 3
If it had been filled with contention or you not pulling your share around the house, I would think those might be part of the sexual garden as well.
I might have not even felt like passionately kissing you.
42:24
Speaker 2
OK, well, there you have it, folks.
42:26
Speaker 3
But it was very tender to watch him kneel down at his mother's feet, who has advanced Alzheimer's, and tell her that it's all because of her, that he ended up with an amazing wife because he followed her counsel to do something that summer that led us to be in a similar place that we met.
42:49
And his mom just cried, you know, 5 minutes later.
She couldn't remember any of it, but it was that, you know, things like that, seeing intimacy with our children or with our parents and tenderness, things like that.
43:06
Cultivate the sexual garden too.
43:08
Speaker 1
For sure, yes, it's beautiful.
43:11
Speaker 2
I do like this garden analogy because you were talking earlier, Cindy, about sometimes you just have to pull up things and maybe even start over pull.
43:20
Speaker 3
Up the weeds.
43:21
Speaker 2
And maybe like totally revamp the garden.
And the more I'm thinking about it here, it makes so much sense because that garden, I mean it, it can totally because we change over life.
We're not the same person.
43:37
And it's good to be OK with that, to be go OK with these changes in life and to say, OK, this is happening right now.
OK.
Just tending to that garden in different seasons and using different tool, different plants anyway.
43:53
Speaker 1
It's not a one and done.
43:55
Speaker 2
No, it's not.
43:56
Speaker 1
It's an ongoing.
43:58
Speaker 2
I think we think that when we get married, on our wedding day, we think, hey, I'm sad.
44:02
Speaker 3
It'd be awesome.
44:04
Speaker 1
It's from the research, right?
Peggy Kleinplatz research.
The people who are describing having extraordinary sex are over 50, and they are doing what you're talking about here, which is they are learning to pivot with the changes in their lives and the changes in their bodies.
44:24
They're learning to communicate even when it's hard.
They're providing intention into connecting and intimacy and all of these things that came out in her research.
But this is what's beautiful for people to hear is that it is an ongoing conversation that we have with ourselves and with our partner lifelong.
44:47
Speaker 3
You talked a minute ago about if we're really struggling to feel desire or we think we are.
I think you said tapping on the shoulder.
There's just a little a little bit there.
What are some of the things that you recommend to those you work with to help ignite some of that desire and passion and intimacy in their relationship besides kissing?
45:13
Speaker 1
Mm hmm.
Besides affection.
45:15
Speaker 3
Affection.
45:15
Speaker 1
I would say understanding how desire really works, like we've been talking about helps.
Like you can come to desire in a responsive way.
You can come from it.
You can come to it from neutral, and still this works.
This you don't see in the movies, but this is the truth of the research.
45:34
Let's get practical.
We talk about intention on your platform, right?
Desire takes intention with attention, intention with attention, meaning especially as we get older or we have stressful things that we're caring for aging parents or you know, all of these things, we have to show desire some attention and do it with intention.
45:59
So do you plan for it?
You know, do you plan for times of intimacy?
People give scheduling intimacy such a bad rap, but we schedule everything else in our lives, right?
And just just like hotel sex or vacation sex, right where you're excited, you plan for it, you're thinking about it ahead, you're thinking about it ahead.
46:21
This is the same that can go into planning for times of intimacy.
I do think flirting has gone the way of, I don't know where, but flirting is, especially with long term partners to bring that back in is that's a desire booster.
46:39
OK, However that looks for you.
We could do a whole episode just on that.
46:43
Speaker 3
Oh, we might call you back to do that.
46:45
Speaker 1
I think and play, play.
I mean, I just tell people sex is your playground.
I mean, intimacy is where adults can play and.
46:54
Speaker 2
Adult.
46:55
Speaker 3
Playground.
46:56
Speaker 1
It is.
And you know when we try to try something new?
Yes, when we try something new together.
When we not always just with sex, but the research shows we build erotic energy when we do things that enliven us.
47:11
So I had a client recently and she was saying, well, we got a new shower and I don't know, it just sparked, you know, so much.
I'm like, really, OK, so how can we take that another step further, right.
And they decided to take, she signed them up for dancing lessons.
47:29
And there was something about that together that just, I have the goosebumps right now because she was like, we just feel enlivened.
I don't know if it's all the touching or just the twirling or what it is, but this was new for them.
Doing something new, trying something new, bringing that kind of enlivening erotic energy to your relationship together with intention.
47:51
Speaker 2
I like that.
Yeah.
You know what else I like?
What?
We're in Mexico City last weekend and we're went to a hotel and we just started kissing and we had all our clothes on and I just went back to when we were dating because we're one of those people that we believe you don't have sex before marriage.
48:10
So it was hot and heavy, I'm telling you, because once the clothes come off, it's different, right?
You don't go back to that same spot when you were dating because our clothes never went off.
Well, I think that's really, I mean, you talk about a desire builder.
48:28
Holy smokes.
48:30
Speaker 1
That's arousal.
I mean, Scott, that's building arousal, right?
48:35
Speaker 2
Indeed.
48:35
Speaker 3
Just being intentional about doing things like that sometimes.
48:40
Speaker 2
So we we kissed like we were dating and we kept her clothes on.
Is LPG 13 I think.
48:52
Speaker 3
But that that build the desire for later in the day.
48:56
Speaker 2
Which was not PG13.
48:59
Speaker 3
It is when you're married.
Oh, but not for anybody to watch.
Just us.
49:06
Speaker 1
I do think that there's a lot of ways to spark desire, but I would just say even asking these kinds of questions that you're bringing up, like what do I do that turns you on?
What do I do to turn myself on?
49:25
You know Gina Ogden's work.
How do I turn myself on?
How do I turn myself off?
Lots of times we don't ask ourselves these questions, especially as we get into longer and longer term relationship.
49:36
Speaker 2
So Cindy, really it sounds to me like we need to do a couple's council.
We need to sit down intentionally with each other and have these discussions.
And I like how you phrase it.
What turns you on and then your spouse, you have it.
49:52
Just go back and forth and I think, yeah, just that couples council we talk about here once a week where you can kind of formalize it just like you formalize sex, right?
You put it in the calendar.
Although I don't put sex on my calendar, I just put SI know what it means.
50:12
Speaker 1
That works.
50:14
Speaker 2
So, yeah, I think intentionality here is the word of the day in in building this, well, in intimacy too, building this incredible, incredible life of intimacy because we tell people like, in order to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage at first requires a change in ourselves that really plays out here.
50:38
Speaker 3
Yeah, Cindy, I think there are so many questions that we want to still ask and maybe our listeners as well.
I'm guessing that some of those things are available in your book, but could we have you just share one final thing that we might not have gotten to yet today that you think is really, really important for women, men, couples to understand about how to cultivate their sexual garden to give themselves permission for pleasure?
51:09
Speaker 1
I think I'll leave us with, since we've talked a lot about intention that we have to be present for the sex we're having in order to enjoy the sex we're having.
So are you finding yourself present?
51:26
Is your mind and body both?
Are you present for the sex you're having?
I mean, I, I have the chills right now because this is the way you truly connect with yourself and with a partner to be present.
51:41
And a lot of times we're having sex without a lot of presence.
51:47
Speaker 3
And it's impossible to really feel pleasure for a lot of us if we're not there in our heads, if our brain isn't mindful and engaged.
51:58
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, and our senses and what we feel are only in the present.
So if we want to tap into that, we have to learn to use mindfulness and not judge ourselves.
Let all the thoughts go as they come because they will come and put ourselves right where we are with our partner and pay attention.
52:22
Speaker 2
Thank you.
52:22
Speaker 3
So if our listeners want to connect with you or read more about what you're doing, again, your book permission for pleasure.
52:31
Speaker 1
Tending your sexual garden.
Everything is permission for pleasure.
My podcast, The Book.
You can find everything@cindysharkey.com.
I have an expansive blog there as well.
My whole passion is education.
52:45
Speaker 2
Love it.
52:46
Speaker 1
And you can find me there.
I have a newsletter, all the things for you to educate yourself and find more permission and more freedom.
52:55
Speaker 2
And we're spreading the word.
52:56
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
52:58
Speaker 3
We've loved having you with us today.
53:00
Speaker 2
All right, everyone.
Well that wraps it up for this episode of Marriage IQ.
And remember, the intelligence spouse knows to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage first requires a change in themselves.
53:12
Speaker 3
And everybody will see you next week on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
