Episode 130: The “Pause” That is Killing Your Marriage
Drifting Apart? Here’s How to Bring Your Marriage Back to Life
Unpausing Your Marriage: How to Rebuild Connection Before It’s Too Late
Most marriages don’t fall apart overnight. They slowly drift.
Not because two people stop loving each other—but because, somewhere along the way, they unknowingly hit “pause” on their relationship.
At first, it feels temporary. Life gets busy. Careers take off. Kids arrive. Responsibilities stack up. You tell yourself, “We’ll get back to us later.”
But here’s the uncomfortable truth: relationships don’t have a pause button.
They’re either growing—or slowly shrinking.
The Hidden Danger of “We’ll Get Back to Us Later”
Early in a relationship, connection feels effortless. You talk for hours, laugh easily, and feel deeply seen. There’s momentum—emotional, physical, even spiritual—that carries you forward.
Then real life begins.
Deadlines. Diapers. Bills. Exhaustion.
Without realizing it, many couples shift their focus entirely to managing life—and stop investing in the relationship that holds it all together.
It’s not intentional. No one wakes up thinking, “I’m going to disconnect from my spouse today.”
But over time, the small moments of connection—those daily check-ins, shared laughs, meaningful conversations—start to disappear.
And when they do, something important fades with them.
Why Disconnection Hurts More Than You Think
Humans are wired for connection. It’s not optional—it’s essential.
When that connection isn’t happening in your marriage, your brain doesn’t just shrug it off. It actually registers emotional disconnection as pain.
So what do we do when we’re in pain?
We try to stop it.
Sometimes that looks like:
Pouring yourself into work
Overinvesting in kids
Escaping into hobbies, social media, or distractions
Seeking emotional connection elsewhere
Not because you’re a bad partner—but because you’re human.
The problem is, these “solutions” often deepen the distance instead of fixing it.
The Three Levels of Real Connection
Rebuilding a relationship isn’t about grand gestures or forcing date nights when things feel off. It’s about understanding how connection actually works.
There are three core levels:
1. Physical Connection
This isn’t just about sex.
It’s about simple, everyday touch:
Holding hands
Hugging
A quick touch on the shoulder
Sitting close
These small gestures communicate safety and care without words.
2. Emotional Connection
This is where many couples think they’re connecting—but aren’t.
Talking about schedules, work updates, or what the kids did today isn’t true connection. That’s just reporting.
Real emotional connection sounds like:
“This stressed me out today…”
“I felt proud when…”
“I’ve been struggling with…”
It’s about feeling understood—not just informed.
3. Spiritual Connection
This is the deepest—and most neglected—level.
It’s where you talk about:
Your dreams
Your fears
Your values
The direction your life is heading
Ironically, this is often where couples first fall in love… and then stop revisiting.
But people change. Life evolves. And if you’re not talking about what matters most, you can slowly grow in completely different directions.
Why “Date Night” Isn’t Always the Fix
You’ve probably heard this advice: “Just start doing date nights again.”
But here’s the catch—if disconnection has gone on for too long, date night can feel awkward… even painful.
You sit across from each other thinking:
What do we even talk about?
That’s because connection works like a muscle. If it hasn’t been used in a while, you can’t expect it to perform at full strength instantly.
Instead of jumping to big gestures, start small:
A quick check-in during the day
A kind text
A brief moment of physical touch
A simple, meaningful question
Small, consistent efforts rebuild trust and comfort over time.
Stop Chasing. Start Pacing.
In many relationships, one partner feels the disconnection first and tries to fix it quickly.
They push harder:
“We need to talk.”
“We should go out more.”
“Why aren’t you trying?”
This often backfires.
The other partner pulls away, feeling pressured—creating a cycle of chasing and distancing.
A better approach?
Pacing.
Instead of forcing connection, invite it:
“Hey, I’m grabbing coffee—want to come?”
“Can I sit with you for a bit?”
“Would you like a hug?”
It’s subtle, respectful, and surprisingly powerful.
Even if the answer is “no,” the invitation itself builds warmth.
The Shift That Changes Everything: From “Me vs. You” to “We”
One of the biggest turning points in a marriage is realizing this:
You’re not two individuals competing—you’re a team.
That doesn’t mean losing yourself. It means bringing your best self into the relationship.
Think of it like this:
Instead of “Why are you like this?” → “How do we handle this together?”
Instead of “You’re the problem” → “What’s happening between us?”
That shift—from me vs. you to we—changes how you approach everything.
A Simple Framework to Rebuild Your Relationship
If your relationship feels paused, focus on three things:
1. Connect
Start small. Be consistent. Focus on daily moments, not big fixes.
2. Change Yourself
Ask: How do I want to show up differently?
Growth in one partner often sparks change in the other.
3. Create a New Path
Don’t just fix what’s broken—build something new together.
A shared vision creates forward momentum.
Your North Star: Commitment
Feelings come and go. Life gets messy.
What keeps a relationship steady isn’t constant happiness—it’s commitment.
Commitment is what says:
“We’re in this, even when it’s hard.”
“We’ll figure it out together.”
It’s what helps you navigate storms when everything else feels uncertain.
Final Thought
If your relationship feels distant right now, it doesn’t mean it’s over.
It likely means it’s been on pause.
And the good news?
You can unpause it—one small, intentional step at a time.
Because connection isn’t something you find.
It’s something you build.
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0:00
Speaker 1
And the problem is there's no suspended animation for relationships.
So they're either going to be growing, expanding, or shrinking and dying.
And long term pause is the shrinking and dying connection is something that we humans are going to find one way or the other.
0:16
So if we're not getting it in the marriage, we will find it somewhere else.
0:22
Speaker 2
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast helping you become an intelligent spouse.
0:28
Speaker 3
I'm Heidi Hastings.
0:29
Speaker 2
And I'm Scott Hastings.
0:31
Speaker 3
We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to change the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun.
0:52
Speaker 2
Hey Heidi, I know with we tried to go through everything before we got married, but that wedding day came and I don't think we really knew at all what we're in for.
1:05
Speaker 3
Well, we were so into each other.
1:07
Speaker 2
We were, we were into each other.
1:10
Speaker 3
And then real life hit when you started Med school.
1:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was rough.
1:14
Speaker 3
I think we had our first child together four days before you started Med school.
1:20
Speaker 2
That sounds about right.
1:21
Speaker 3
And that was pretty rough.
1:23
Speaker 2
And you had a huge, major life change.
And yeah.
1:26
Speaker 3
I'd been a career woman all my life.
1:28
Speaker 2
Then we're thinking, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's happened to that spark?
What's happened to that?
Oh, La La.
1:35
Speaker 3
I hardly ever saw you.
And then more kids came along, and more kids.
1:40
Speaker 2
Well, that it's a good thing we have an expert on with us today who's going to talk about that.
1:44
Speaker 3
Yeah, so welcome to marriage IQ doctor Lee Balcom.
He's a therapist and a coach and he's a podcaster like we are.
He has the Save the Marriage podcast.
And one really unique thing about him is that he's the creator of the Unpause app.
2:03
So we're really, really excited to see how the things that he has to teach us could help us or you, whatever stage you're in.
I think we're a little more connected now than we were in those days, but unpause those times of your relationship where you feel really disconnected and help you connect once again.
2:22
So welcome, Doctor Balcom.
2:24
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Oh, I love the cheering.
2:30
Speaker 3
We're happy you're here too.
2:33
Speaker 2
Well, Lee, I just want to ask.
So this pause thing like isn't that sometimes good to pause?
2:41
Speaker 1
Yeah, So it's OK to take a pause, but not so much for the relationship.
So let's back up.
You kind of set it up well for what happens.
You fall in love, right?
And you spend all of this energy getting into that relationship and.
And you think, wow, we've got this love and that love is going to carry us on.
2:57
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
So then what do you do?
You walk down, you have a short little ceremony.
I mean, I remember it for myself.
It was I think maybe 45 minutes.
And I walked out with my wife on my arm going.
That's all it took.
You know, here we are now what now?
3:12
Real life training, right?
And it's on the job training with nobody to correct you as you're getting in there.
So what happens from there is exactly what you described.
It's going to be different for other people, but say, well, we got this set and now we've got to do some other things.
3:28
Like we've got to maybe do the parenting thing or the career thing or aging parents or hobbies or interest or travels or whatever it is.
So we're going to hit the pause button.
And that's not something anybody says they're doing, but they hit the pause button thinking we'll get back to us.
3:47
You know, we'll get back to that love again after.
And this is where the problem steps in.
3:53
Speaker 2
Wait a minute though, Lee, what if I really have to focus on passing my boards?
I don't really know.
4:01
Speaker 3
But back in the day.
4:02
Speaker 2
Back in the day though, passing boards.
4:04
Speaker 3
Right when we got married.
4:05
Speaker 2
Studying for exams.
I have to get that A.
I mean, can't I push pause and say, honey, I got a study for this exam, this is coming up.
I can't afford not to.
4:19
Speaker 1
That's a great question and it put two things together.
I've got to hit pause while I'm studying versus I'm going to hit pause for a while and that's two different things.
So one of the things that the pause button is not about is that you're not spending 100% of your time with each other.
4:37
That's not a possibility.
Stability.
I mean, life does come along.
And the fact is that you have made that commitment.
So there is a shift in the psychology of that.
There's a shift in the energy of that.
The problem is when people hit the pause button and it's an ongoing pause.
4:53
Not like, hey, I'm going to be really busy for the these next three weeks.
Let me get my head down.
It's a several year and it's a rolling thing, right?
So yeah, I've got to do the boards and all my specialization and on and on it goes until you realize that years have passed and you're looking over going.
5:11
We haven't been in connection for years.
And the problem is there's no suspended animation for relationships.
So they're either going to be growing, expanding or shrinking and dying.
And long term pause is the shrinking and dying.
5:24
Speaker 2
And it really sounds to me, Lee, like perhaps that pause that's long term is not necessarily intentional.
Meaning like you said, we don't wake up saying I'm going to pause today.
It's like I don't wake up saying I want to be a jerk today.
5:40
It just happens.
But I think though, maybe what you're saying, what I hear you saying it is that this long term pause, we don't, it's not a plan.
It's just like, Oh my gosh, I have to react to life right now instead of for an exam, like I got to study for this next three weeks and then you're on board.
5:58
I'm on board.
It's more intentional.
6:00
Speaker 3
But becoming a parent that took everything that I was familiar with, threw it out the door, including the time I would spend with you because I'm feeding, diapering, responding to cries, getting very little sleep.
6:14
Speaker 1
But that is the fact, you know, it feels like these priorities are coming at us and we've got to take care of them.
And so it's not a matter of is there a way of balancing that?
That's kind of the big thing.
People don't set back and say, how do we continue to prioritize our connection?
6:31
Doesn't mean that you take all day every day.
The energy that it took to get to the altar is not the same energy it takes to stay in a happy relationship.
6:41
Speaker 2
Can you please repeat that, Lee?
The same energy it took.
6:45
Speaker 1
To get to the altar, yeah, is not what it takes to carry you through a happy relationship.
6:50
Speaker 2
Wow, OK.
6:52
Speaker 3
And boy, do a lot of us put a ton of energy and effort into getting to the altar.
So then what happens?
7:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.
So that's the thing that we tend to think in one or the other ways, right?
Like we're looking back on what?
We can't keep doing that.
And so then we do the opposite of that, which is we'll get back to us eventually.
It used to be years ago, I would hear, well, when we retire, we'll get back to us.
7:16
I don't hear that as much anymore, right.
There are times we think along the way, but the problem is that we live within our habits.
And so in the beginning of the relationship, you're building these habits of connection, like you're talking to each other and texting with each other.
You're doing everything to have that energy.
7:33
Then when you settle in, and one of the things that I have to say is this doesn't mean the day after your wedding or the day after the honeymoon or month after, that's when this happens.
You do have momentum that carries you for a while, but sometimes that momentum makes you think that you're still relating when the pause has been hit and it's just momentum carrying you.
7:53
And eventually momentum runs out.
And if you haven't been working on those connections than the connection falters.
8:01
Speaker 2
What I hear you saying is that I may have pushed pause a year ago, but because the momentum from the honeymoon phase has carried me through, I didn't even realize it.
I didn't recognize it.
8:15
Speaker 1
I don't feel it.
8:15
Speaker 2
I don't feel it like it.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't feel the pain yet.
8:18
Speaker 3
Yeah.
And I think research shows that sexual and relationship satisfaction that first year or two is still pretty high and then it kind of takes a nosedive.
8:29
Speaker 1
Yeah.
And part of that is that disconnection starts setting in.
And so where it was before, you're having these moments of connection, they start to lessen.
And so the real connection is not happening.
You may still be in the same place at the same time, maybe even in the same spot physically at the same time, right?
8:47
That might still continue for a while.
But as it starts to drift and you have less of those moments of catching up with each other, of knowing where each other is, then suddenly you start feeling more, more distant from each other.
And here's the thing that I think kind of really ties it in is that each person is usually aware of the pain they're feeling, not of the disconnection they're creating.
9:09
So they're aware of what they're not getting, so.
9:12
Speaker 3
So right, yeah, what?
I'm not getting getting your attention or I'm not getting intimacy or I'm not Our sex isn't what it should be or.
9:21
Speaker 2
We've talked about this quite a bit.
That's a human nature.
I think it's just part of mortality.
Our humanness right we are missing something and we don't think about what it's doing for to the other person and how what I've role I've played what's.
9:36
Speaker 3
My contribution.
9:38
Speaker 2
That's why one of the things we teach very strongly on here is to change from a stinky to a scintillating marriage requires first to change in ourselves.
And I think you're kind of hitting on that.
You're also hitting on intentionality, which is one of our 4 cornerstones.
Intentionally setting aside that time so that that creep, that pause doesn't happen.
9:59
Speaker 1
So one of the things I often push people on with intentionality is what you're trying to set up intentionally are the systems that keep you connecting.
Because it's hard to think every moment, oh, I need to be working on that.
But if you have the systems in place, then the intentionality follows that.
10:16
So you're making sure you have the time, you're making sure you have the connection.
I talk about these 3 levels of connection.
And so then you can begin to think about the intention finality required for each of those levels.
And if it's not happening, it's more easily to identify where that's not working so you can bring that back.
10:34
Speaker 2
OK, So what are some of the systems then?
10:37
Speaker 1
So let's talk about those 3 levels and then that might help us point to the systems.
The three levels are physical, emotional and spiritual.
And so this is kind of my breakdown of that physical is any, any loving touch, any loving physical touch.
10:53
And that's the part that we share with whatever other warm blooded creatures, my puppies beside me.
And she's all about physical connection.
She's up against my leg and she understands that is that loving connection.
So whenever I say it, people like, oh, you mean sex?
Well, no, but yes.
11:08
Speaker 3
That's part of it.
11:09
Speaker 1
But so is kissing and hugging and holding hands and patting legs and patting backs and back rubs and anything else.
So all of that fits into their foot rubs, all of that.
And that's non verbal other than, hey, would you rub my feet?
But it's it's non verbal and actually the connecting part.
11:25
And then there is the emotional connection.
The emotional connection is partly non verbal.
As we're sitting here talking, if you're in agreement with me, you're nodding your head and I go, OK, we're on board with that.
So that's the non verbal.
I get you, I understand you.
But there's also the verbal of sharing.
And so that is the sense that you get each other.
11:44
I get you, you get me.
My wife laughs at my jokes and I'm like, oh, OK, she gets my sense of humor and that's a get part.
And then there is the support.
Do we feel like each of us are there for the good, bad times and the bad times, you know, do we just feel supported by each other?
11:59
That's the emotional level, the spiritual level.
Whenever I say that, people are like, oh, you mean religion?
Well, no, but yes.
12:05
Speaker 3
That could be part of it.
12:07
Speaker 1
Sure, because that's where we root our values.
But it's not just there the the spiritual connection, completely verbal is where you're talking about.
What are your goals?
What are your dreams?
What are your fears?
What do you want to move towards?
What are your deepest values?
12:22
The interesting thing to me when I was doing a lot of premarital counseling with couples is that spiritual connection is where they fell in love and then they stop being intentional about that particularly.
So they talk about that deep conversation they had that usually starts like late in the evening and goes until early in the morning where they talked about their childhood and their direction and what they want out of life.
12:44
And then that spiritual connection is something that couples don't tend to talk a lot more about after that.
So those 3 levels have three different kind of ways that we could be setting up systems to make sure they're happening.
12:56
Speaker 3
Can I ask a question, is physical the ground level and then emotional builds on top of that and then spiritual on top of that?
Or is it more like 3 pillars?
13:07
Speaker 1
I think it's more like 3 pillars.
13:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's what I would say too, because women often will start with the emotional or expect the emotional to come first and then the physical.
13:19
Speaker 2
Men, it's the other way around.
Here's the thing that gets me that I I also want to ask a question on is a spiritual 1 and I think I agree.
It's not necessarily religious at all.
You could be an atheist and share in a beautiful sunset together and just you and your spouse and feel something very connecting.
13:36
I think that's a spiritual experience.
Maybe somebody might disagree with me on that, but I feel when we do it, it's a very.
13:45
Speaker 3
Very We're not atheist.
We.
13:47
Speaker 2
Very much believe in God, but I think even those who aren't religious to have those experiences.
Why do you think, Lee, that that is the one that maybe gets neglected more than the others?
14:00
Speaker 1
So that is the deepest part of ourselves.
What is most important to me, I don't share with too many other people.
There may be some people who have some hints of that, but I can share more of that with my spouse, partly because that determines how we move along in life, where we're going to go.
And so if you think that, oh, we talk about our day, you know, we talk about what good times we have in bad times we have, you're still missing that part of what is most important to me.
14:25
What do I build my values on?
This is where mismatches really matter.
A couple, maybe they started kind of at a similar place of values, but maybe one changes it, pivots to something else from some experience or understanding, and they haven't been talking about it.
14:40
Then they're suddenly in trouble.
When that emerges, when it shows itself, they don't know how to cross that chasm that's now there.
And before it was, you felt like you were In Sync on that.
And that's something that changes.
I think over time.
It becomes more important to most people as they age.
14:58
Core values matter.
It's still what connects people.
In the early part, often they tell me that they fell in love with who this person was at the deepest level.
That's that spiritual place.
The religious piece of that for people is where they hold their values and express their values.
15:15
But the experiences shared together, what are my hopes?
What are my dreams, what are my fears?
That is a deeper level than I share with most people around me.
15:23
Speaker 2
You brought up a couple of things here.
And 1 is that when we married, we were different people and we progress at different rates.
And you get to a point where, hey, whoa, wait a minute, we had this connection spiritually way back when and we're just at different places now because life happens, right?
15:43
And it sometimes can be really hard to not have that shared spiritual or physical or emotional bond that you once had.
And I guess that's the the messy work that needs to happen, right?
15:59
What's your thoughts on that, Lee?
16:00
Speaker 1
So if you've hit the pause button, you have at least reduced the amount of connection.
There can still be physical connection.
Maybe you still, even in those hard moments of life, still share that with each other.
But that's not a day-to-day habit anymore.
And that spiritual connection often is something that disappears with couples after their early part of their relationship.
16:20
They're like, OK, we got that.
We're on the same page.
We have the same values, We have the same outlook.
We have the same dreams, but they don't stay the same.
I mean, what I thought about when I was 22 is not what I think about when I was 45 or 50 or now almost 60.
16:37
So that changes along the way.
And if you're not talking about it, it's really hard to figure out how that moves forward.
The emotional connection.
A lot of times I watch people confuse their reporting to each other with that and they come in and they talk about what happened that day and how was your day is met with?
16:55
Well, I had three meetings and a report.
That's not how was your day.
That was what did you do today?
And that doesn't build a whole lot of rapport.
It's a whole lot of a report.
And so when we get stuck in that reporting, it can feel like we're doing a talk about what the kids did.
17:11
Years ago.
I sent a couple on their assignment was to go to dinner and just talk for an hour.
That was the whole thing.
And they came in and I said, how'd it go?
And they said, well, you know, it's a little rough at first, but we talked the whole hour.
And I said, would you talk?
Well, we talked about the kids and we talked about the schedule coming up.
17:27
And I'm like, that's the easy surface stuff.
And so they had to do it again.
And they came back and said that was really tough.
We haven't done that in a long time.
It felt very awkward and that's the nature of when we disconnected and got it.
Now the habit of those connection levels, when we try to reconnect, it can feel very awkward and like you're completely out of sync with each other.
17:49
Speaker 3
Yeah, we've had date nights every Friday night for most all of the 30 years that we've been married.
And we've tried to have the rule, no talking about work, no talking about kids.
Sometimes we are not very good at keeping that rule.
18:03
Speaker 2
So last week we talked about work and then we quickly.
18:07
Speaker 3
Was like oops.
18:08
Speaker 2
We quickly corrected, we recognize and we corrected and we said, oh, we're not doing that.
And then we did.
18:17
Speaker 1
The interesting thing though is it is possible to talk about work and it be connecting.
You can be talking about what's important about work, what's a struggle at work, what you're hoping to get out of work.
And those would be connecting moments when you're reporting to each other how work is going or going over the figures of work.
18:34
That's not particularly connecting.
Same with talking about the kids.
If you're talking about how do we deal with this situation, that can be a connecting couples conversation.
If it's a you won't believe what the kids did today.
Not that you don't want to know that, but it's just not very connecting.
18:49
Speaker 3
It's an interesting thought.
18:51
Speaker 2
So what do we do with this child?
I think that that would be of, yeah, potentially connecting point.
I think, for me anyway, that would probably come after we have connected and I feel pretty good about our connection.
19:06
Speaker 3
We have other opportunities throughout the week where we're talking business things and that we're talking about children.
19:12
Speaker 2
Our business hat or relationship hat or parent hat.
19:16
Speaker 1
Awareness you're talking about the role you have and to be able to change the hat is important if people have things together, like kids together and can you put on the OK, this is just the I need to tell you this parenting thing.
That's a different hat.
But let's go back.
19:32
One of the things you pointed to is that date night.
That is often where I hear people go, OK, well, if we're not connecting, we need to do date night.
And my observation is that many times the disc connection is so severe that they can't handle date night really.
19:49
And so that ends up being even more uncomfortable.
There are certain levels of connection and have to be there in order for date night to not default to, oh, gosh, what are we going to do?
I watched the eyes rolling when somebody says, oh, we need to do date night.
And the other person, the eyes are rolling, but the eyes are rolling because they don't feel that right.
20:08
They're not at that point.
20:09
Speaker 3
Because they're so disconnected.
20:11
Speaker 1
They're so disconnected it can't hold that.
So date night, romantic getaways and and both of those are fine in the right context.
Even marriage intensives.
I've watched people just completely lose the relationship because they insisted on a marriage intensive when the relationship wasn't at a place where it could hold that connection.
20:30
Speaker 3
So you start even smaller.
20:32
Speaker 1
You have to start smaller and fortunately they're usually is some level of muscle memory once you get past the awkwardness.
My reminder for people is whenever you do something.
So if you used to ride a bicycle, you have some muscle memory there, but if you wait 10-15 years to ride that bike, it's going to feel really awkward when you first start.
20:50
It's going to take a while for that to come back in.
It just comes back faster than if you were trying the first time to do that.
20:57
Speaker 2
Right.
So hold off on date nights if that pause button has been pushed for a really long time.
Yeah.
Is that what you're saying?
21:04
Speaker 1
You want to go one higher than the level of connection you have there.
That's always been the trick for people to say, OK, So what exactly do I do?
And my response is a little bit more than you're doing right now, a little bit more in those three areas, but you can't do a lot more because it can't sustain it.
That's when you get the push back, the stonewalling and kind of the panic.
21:24
Speaker 3
So touch might feel safe, but even that might not.
21:28
Speaker 1
Exactly.
And some people will tell me, you know, we haven't hugged or kissed in forever.
And I'm like, well, then start with when you're passing by patting them on the back or patting them on the hand while you're watching TV, Right.
And those small things can build up.
The thing that kind of powers all of this is the human need for connection.
21:46
And so if you start to get a little connection, that starts to feed that and you can grow it.
But you can't go from zero to 60.
You know, that is just a tough jump.
You have to be slowly accelerating it to get there, especially if only one person is really on board with that.
22:03
If both people are going, Yep, let's rebuild this, that goes a little faster because both are aware of that.
But if one person is a little more hesitant, the danger is.
So there's this whole distancer and pursuer dynamic that we've talked about a lot in psychology, and I call that the chaser and the spacer.
22:20
And the temptation is to chase faster if you're trying to get that person in and you need to pace.
So instead of being the chaser, you want to be the pacer.
Generally, the spacer is not the person that's talking to me because they're trying.
22:33
Speaker 2
They're trying to, yeah.
22:35
Speaker 3
OK, so Chaser.
22:36
Speaker 2
The spacer.
22:37
Speaker 3
Spacer and what was the third one?
22:39
Speaker 1
You want to be the pacer.
22:40
Speaker 3
Pacer.
OK, so you don't want to be the chaser, you don't want to be the spacer because you don't want too much space, but you want to just pace yourself.
22:49
Speaker 1
So just my observation is that when people are talking to me or in my program, they're likely to be the chaser, not the spacer.
Spacers are the ones who are trying to avoid more work on the relationship and they need to work on their pacing skills.
23:04
If you've got 2 who are really committed to working together, it's not so much a a dynamic, it's still there.
Just because we have these fears within us, we don't want to lose ourselves.
That's the fear of intimacy or lose what is most valuable us.
That's the fear of abandonment.
And those two trigger each other.
23:21
If somebody's going, man, this is too much for me, I'm going to back off.
That's going to trigger the I'm about to lose something.
I got to move forward.
And so that dynamic is in play.
Even if both of them decide they want to work on things, they still have to find the right intensity that they can both roll with.
23:38
Speaker 3
So how do you teach people to be Pacers then?
23:42
Speaker 1
So Invitational is the first piece.
If I were to say to somebody, hey, I'm going to go get a sandwich, would you like to go with me as a new restaurant up the road?
That's far different than saying Friday night, that's date night, you're going to dress U, I'm going to dress U, we're going on date night.
That's a whole different level.
23:58
An invitation is there O if friend calls me U and says, hey, do you want to go grab a sandwich?
Even if I can't, it leaves me with a warm feeling of, oh, that was nice for them to think of me.
So there's even a connection that's built into it.
That's an Invitational way of doing it.
And that's true with all of those conversations to be able to be more on any level of connection, Invitational to that, rather than trying to force it.
24:21
You need to hold my hand.
That's not Invitational.
Can I hold your hand?
Can I give you a hug?
That's more Invitational.
OK.
24:30
Speaker 3
So even consent if there's been quite a period of time with no physical touch.
24:36
Speaker 1
And that's an interesting piece because it also means the person can say no, no, thank you.
And the person who has extended the invitation can't go.
Well, then I give up.
Many times I've watched people try to set up that invitation.
Hey, I'm going to go grab a cup of coffee.
24:52
Would you like to go with me?
No, I'm good.
OK.
I'm not going to go either.
Well, you just let on that that was not actually an invitation.
That was pressure that you were posing as an invitation, so truly to be an invitation.
25:05
Speaker 2
Have a passive aggressive approach, right?
25:08
Speaker 1
Yes, it's self sabotage at least.
25:10
Speaker 2
So I want to go back a little bit because when you say pause, you have to recognize that there's a pause going on, right?
You have to acknowledge that it's happening.
And if you don't, then you don't know what you don't know and you just keep going down this road.
25:25
What happens when 11 spouse recognizes the pause the other one doesn't?
I guess that can be really problematic I would imagine.
25:34
Speaker 1
A lot of times one person is completely comfortable with where things are because it now feels safe.
They built in that habit of safe, so they might not acknowledge that the pause needs to be changed.
They're just comfortable with where things are.
There are a couple of ways, though, that plays out.
I've often said to people, I would rather your spouse feel some hopelessness about your situation then did they feel hopeful about something else, an alternative and they've started to look at overly invested.
26:02
My hope is in my job, My hope is and just going and seeing the world.
My hope is in that other person.
That's a more common one.
26:10
Speaker 3
Meaning infidelity or something.
26:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, connection is something that we humans are going to find one way or the other.
So if we're not getting it in the marriage, we will find it somewhere else.
Overly invested in our kids, overly invested at work, in the job and coworkers and hobbies and friends or another person.
26:30
We're going to find that connection.
And most of the time people tell them the story that they're not the cause of this.
You know, I'm doing this because you're not giving me the attention I want, not I'm doing this.
But we have disconnected.
26:44
Speaker 3
Could those other things filling that longing for connection include addictions?
I'm just thinking off the top of my head.
Gaming, social media, pornography, spending money, eating, any of those kinds of addictions.
27:00
Speaker 1
So where they do crossover is connection does give us that same dopamine hit that we're needing, right?
And a lot of others, oxytocin and a lots of other chemical stuff that I'm not the doctors going to speak too deeply into that.
But there is that knee, right?
And if we can't find it there where it's appropriate, we're going to find it somewhere that it brings it.
27:20
So yeah, or we do something that's numbing the pain, which could be a drug or substance that would just numb us out.
27:27
Speaker 3
And I guess you can substitute the word compulsive for addiction, because I know in the diagnostic manuals that not all of those are considered addictions.
I.
27:38
Speaker 1
Think we can certainly point at them as addictive behaviors, whether we want to call it that or not, in.
27:43
Speaker 3
Compulsive for sure, yeah.
27:44
Speaker 2
I've heard somewhere, I don't know who said it, the opposite of addiction is connection.
27:49
Speaker 1
John Bradshaw.
27:50
Speaker 2
OK.
27:51
Speaker 3
There you go.
27:52
Speaker 1
Yeah, we're trying to fill that hole.
So if we can't get it the right way, we get it a cheap way.
And that's often in that addictive behaviors.
And we also know that when people have struggles from childhood or with attachment, that they often end up with a higher risk of addiction because of that.
28:06
Speaker 2
Well, that's interesting.
28:07
Speaker 3
So the pause button definitely impacts more than just the relationship, it impacts other outside things that then also destroy the relationship further.
28:19
Speaker 1
The way our culture is designed, the relationship that is built in as the most connected relationship is your spouse.
And, and so if it's not happening there, there's almost like the leakage from other places.
You're still trying to find it somewhere else and still in pain from the fact that that that's where you know it should be and it's not.
28:40
Some of the studies they've done on the brain is that the same part of the brain that feels physical pain is the part that lights up when it feels the emotional disconnection, the pain from the disconnection.
And So what do you do when you're in pain?
You try to stop it.
If I hit my hand, the only thing in the world that I'm aware of is my hand is hurting and I'm trying to figure out how to stop it, not thinking about what's the cause of this and how do I make sure that I do the safely.
29:05
I just want to stop the pain.
And so that happens in relationships too.
I'm hurting from the disconnection.
And so the easiest thing I can do is blame my spouse and look elsewhere for the connection.
And those are pretty potent destructors of of a relationship.
29:20
Speaker 2
Wow.
So you mentioned that the first thing is that invitation, right?
Because it's subtle, it's easy, it's non judgmental, no pressure.
What would be like a next level after you invite?
29:35
Speaker 1
So I'll talk about when you're working on restoring a relationship, there are three CS and 1 is that connection.
And the way you do that connection is Invitational, but there's also changing yourself.
And as soon as I say that, somebody says you think there's something wrong with me.
And my response is we all have places where we stagnate.
29:53
I mean, that is the nature of adulthood.
You know, that you get used to what's around you and you lock in.
And so you stop showing up.
You stop bringing energy into the relationship or into your own life.
And so changing yourself is asking the question, how do I want to show up differently?
Who do I want to be?
30:09
Where have I stagnated?
Maybe it's taking up a new hobby, doing something that brings more energy, and maybe it's really looking at some places where you truly are blocked, but that's changing yourself.
And that's a piece that it doesn't matter how your spouse is responding to connection.
You can do that.
30:24
You can do that work.
And the third one is creating a new path to create.
So connect, change, create, and the new path is what I think is a fundamental miss for a lot of couples.
They didn't realize that what they were building is being a we.
30:40
We're in this together, we are in this, we're A-Team.
And so a lot of creating that new path is understanding for yourself where you have not stepped into that, where you stuck with a you versus me kind of mentality that often comes in a marriage.
When you're first dating, you end up with a you and me kind of thing and you refer this person in me and that you and me can get you to a distance into the relationship.
31:05
But when you say marriage, you have created another entity of the US the week the law even says that there's this entity that is your marriage.
And so treating it that way is important.
And when you don't treat it that way, two people are going to become you versus me whenever they're in an intimate relationship, if they're not seeing it as we're on the team together.
31:25
So that's the creating that shift.
31:27
Speaker 2
We can't I be a me and we can't I be an individual.
31:31
Speaker 1
To that is that is not outside of being a wee.
Let's use that team mentality for a minute.
So I play a lot of pickleball now and when I step on the court, as soon as we're practicing, I'm going what do I need to do to shore up whatever problems my partner has, if I can?
31:48
I mean, it's possible that there's some things that we're just together not going to be good at and we're going to have to compensate for that.
But how can I cover that as opposed to going, wow, you should have hit better at that Or, you know, you really don't know how to play the game here, do you?
I'm going, how can I support that?
32:03
And so I need to play my best.
I'm not not losing myself to the team.
I'm bringing my best self to the team.
And so, yes, you can be the best you you can be in the team and the best is at that moment.
I also have a kind of a belief that people really for the most part, do the best they can given where they are.
32:21
That didn't mean they couldn't be better tomorrow or might have been better yesterday, but right now doing their best.
So that being a me is, can I be the best I can right now?
32:32
Speaker 3
And I don't think telling somebody that they need to be better is the way for somebody to decide they want to be their best self.
32:40
Speaker 1
Funny how that doesn't help, don't it?
32:41
Speaker 3
No, in fact, it kind of does the opposite.
It's happening.
32:44
Speaker 1
To be better, I use examples from all around my life when I can.
But I remember I decided that maybe I could play an advanced level of pickleball.
I can't, but I thought one day I might.
And I got there and there were two other players that were kind of my level trying to do the same thing.
And so the two of us and then one on the other side and then advanced player, we're playing together.
33:05
We should have lost badly because the three of us were even.
And this one guy should have tipped it over.
And I watched him continually criticize his partner.
I turned to my partner and I said we've got this because he's going to crumble.
And we ended up beating them 11:00 to 3:00 because the advanced player just tore him down.
33:24
So no, it wasn't particularly helpful for him to be told all the bad things he was doing.
What a.
33:29
Speaker 3
Perfect analogy, that is.
I hope that that's one that really resonates with our listeners, because when you do that and the other person crumbles, the whole team suffers.
33:41
Speaker 2
I'm thinking like 2 spheres.
They come together.
You got a, you know, part of the sphere in one, part of the sphere in the other part.
That one's me, that one's we, and I'm not so enmeshed with you.
33:53
Speaker 3
Like a Venn diagram.
33:54
Speaker 1
Venn diagram yeah.
In fact, that's what I use in my system to talk about.
There's there's a Venn diagram that there are pieces of me, for instance, there's.
I like to scuba dive.
My wife doesn't even like the water.
That's never going to crossover.
I'm never going to say we need to go scuba diving, but you know she will support me in that and she's got some things that are of interest.
34:11
So there are outside pieces for all of us that are outside of that we.
But even in that, how do we win together?
How do we decide to take on the world and winning?
It's always interesting though.
What are you winning?
Well, we're doing the best we can to get through life.
34:24
Speaker 3
Winning life.
34:25
Speaker 1
That's the win.
34:27
Speaker 3
Winning at having a thriving relationship.
34:30
Speaker 2
Well, our values, our visions, our goals that we set.
34:33
Speaker 3
If we've talked about those, right, if we've not gone on pause and we've continued to or at least started to when we recognize that we haven't been clear with each other about those.
34:46
Speaker 1
Well, you can recognize that there are many times when that where are we headed?
Is going to change over life.
And as long as you're talking about it, you can adjust to that.
Basically, in that short little ceremony we talked about in the very beginning, you joined your life path together.
35:02
And so not having a conversation about that life path means that if you begin to see a divergent place, that's going to be difficult if you're not in conversation.
35:11
Speaker 2
About it, you know, I remember coming to a point where I could choose to be in this relationship or not, and it was very real and very, I don't know, guttural, I guess.
And I said, you know, I choose you, I choose you, I choose you now, I choose you forever.
35:29
And that's how it's going to be that.
I mean, that is just how it's going to be.
I am completely committed to this marriage and to you.
And that was a really, that was a great turning point in my life because, you know, I have the choice.
35:46
I think we all do, right?
But it's nice to know and to feel with every ounce of who I am.
That's what I chose and that's what I continue to choose.
And that can go through a whole lot of mess.
36:02
You know, that commitment.
And because I was deeply in love and I still am deeply in love with you.
We are two very different people than we were when we married.
And as Esther Perel and I'm sure others have said so well that what, you know, a successful marriage has two or three in it and they're all to the same person or more.
36:25
We actually kind of killed off this old marriage recently and started a new one.
36:32
Speaker 3
Yeah, we struggled with grief that necessitated, excuse me, doing things different.
My struggle with grief, with the passing of my parents, it opened up a lot that it was like we got to do things different.
36:51
And it's weird how something like that impacts other parts of your life, including your marriage.
But I could have just totally turned the other way and pushed pause on this while I deal with that, which I think we did kind of for a few months and it was like, wait a second, this isn't working.
37:08
Speaker 1
The transitions do that, right?
I mean, and every transition has its grief.
It's just that yours are tied up to the loss of somebody, not just the grief of loss of a stage, but those griefs are marking that there's a transition.
Whenever something is changing, we're going to have grief with it.
37:25
And the question is, do you join together in that?
And if you're joining together in that and navigating that, you can create the relationship you want because you face the fact that we're at the end of this point of life, this stage of life.
37:40
Speaker 2
And sometimes that's hard to look back and say, this part is over.
There are some parts I really liked about it, but I'm moving on and it's over.
And this new part, it's a little scary, really.
37:57
Speaker 3
Exciting.
37:58
Speaker 2
Also very exciting.
38:00
Speaker 3
Almost every day we try to say what is a new way we can approach this than we've done before.
38:07
Speaker 2
So we're doing.
38:08
Speaker 3
Crazy stuff like we went ice skating on Friday night for her date.
It's a lot of fun.
38:14
Speaker 2
Everyone laughed at us, but it was new.
38:17
Speaker 1
You're bringing new energy and I mean that when you try something different together, you bond around that together and that allows that.
It's interesting.
When you said scary but exciting, I mean there is no difference in our brain between those two other than what reading we're putting on it.
Scary and exciting is exactly the same biochemical cascade.
38:35
It's just exciting.
We want to go towards scary, what we want to avoid.
And so how can we use that to make a choice?
I want to bring in one more piece though that you pointed to and that is commitment.
I've many times have led retreats and have asked what is your North Star of your relationship?
38:51
And people will say love, happiness, all these other things.
Nope.
It's commitment because commitment will allow you to navigate through those tough times.
North Star.
I love the thought of that because if you're in the midst of a storm, you may not know exactly where you are right then, but when the clouds clear, you can go, oh, there's the North Star.
39:11
Now we know where we are now we know how to navigate again.
And not that it's a flawless system while there's the storm, but it's there afterwards.
And the commitment that we make is we're in this.
I mean, if people listen to their vows they were making, you know, there's not many days left.
39:27
And we talked about sick and healthy days, rich and poor days, good days, bad days.
39:32
Speaker 3
That pretty much covers it.
39:33
Speaker 1
That's all every day and until a death part is the end of that.
And so we've already set the commitment for the rest of our lives.
There is the commitment there and then we forget to navigate with that.
That commitment means how are we going to think about that?
So it's been a number of years now.
39:48
My wife and I were having a discussion.
We are not allowed people.
So that was our argument.
And she went to another part of the house while I was thinking through and I was like, oh, I've got my debate points, you know, let me go present this and she will go, oh, you're so correct.
And so I marched the long.
40:06
I marched along and I started and I had my finger up.
And she said, before you say a word, I just want to ask you, is what you're about to say going to help us or harm us in the fact that we are together through the rest of our life?
And I went, yeah, never mind.
That doesn't matter.
Yeah.
And that's a frame, right?
40:21
I mean, you use that as talk about a system or this discussion that we're having.
Is it moving us forward?
Because conflict can be either I want to win this or it can help us to transform our relationship.
One's helpful, the other, other just destroys.
40:37
Speaker 2
I agree with you.
However, I'm thinking about if you have two different takes on reality and one is more objective than the other, how do you deal with that?
40:48
Speaker 1
Usually I've realized that both people think they have the more objective take on reality, so we have a problem.
So I don't think there is a way to have a relationship where there is no conflict.
My question is, always, is the conflict serving your relationship or is it acting as a who's winning and who's losing?
41:07
Who are we keeping score?
And so the objective part is usually more of a perspective part.
Am I seeing this from a different perspective and you're seeing it from a different perspective.
Are we going to have to find a choice?
Yes, because we've put our lives together, but that's part of the process.
41:24
Speaker 2
Well, the reason I ask is because I'm sure you're familiar with the term gaslighting, but that's literally used to make a spouse or whoever think that whatever's happening, it's not reality, but it is reality.
But who's saying it's reality, right?
41:40
If you can't have an objective viewpoint, like a hidden camera, so to speak, how do you navigate?
Because I could, I could accuse my spouse of gaslighting me, but it's just their perspective that's different than mine, right?
Like that, that gets kind of a little a little messy.
41:58
What did you have anything on that?
41:59
Speaker 1
So one of the things that I often push people to remember is gaslighting has a true clinical kind of terminology to it.
We've gotten to the point in our culture where we feel if somebody is telling us something than what we experience, that's gaslighting.
Sometimes it can be a different perspective as opposed to somebody who's actually going about manufacturing the evidence to perpetuate a lie to their spouse.
42:23
That is a different level.
And when you're at that point, if you've got someone gaslighting you, we are now talking about a toxic personality situation.
Not just we see things differently.
42:32
Speaker 2
So you're saying gaslighting?
The term is being thrown around way, way too much.
42:36
Speaker 1
Way too much, okay.
42:38
Speaker 2
It's a deeper, darker definition.
42:41
Speaker 1
When it's truly happening, it's far darker than what we have grown accustomed to.
Just saying, oh, that's gaslighting.
And let me just say I'm not saying that lying is OK.
The fact is that humans tend to be liars a lot of the time.
And so just using that, some people say instead of they lied to me, they gaslighted me.
42:59
That's not clinically correct.
They were dishonest with you.
They lied to you.
That's that is correct.
And that is something you deal with differently than if someone truly is gaslighting you.
And I've had probably a handful of times when I had to finally say this is gaslighting and this is toxic.
43:16
But they are the exceptions, not the places where you have a different perspective or somebody is holding on to a dishonesty.
43:23
Speaker 3
And I want to go back to your systems that you've been talking about as the best way to unpause those pauses.
43:30
Speaker 1
Connect, change, create.
Now how that fits in for each person is to step back and say, what systems do we have in place?
So that's one of the things we're trying to do with the Unpause app, to have people redesign their systems.
And part of the way we do that is the app itself redesigns things.
43:48
So they're thinking about this on a very intentional way.
43:51
Speaker 3
And it works on those 3C's mostly.
Or or is there more to it?
43:55
Speaker 1
So those are kind of the categories they are moving towards.
But I have a process, it's a twice a day process in the morning.
You're being intentional about how do I want to set up my day, what's important to me, how do I move forward?
And then to look at that at the end of the day to help you continually look at what are my systems in place to do these things.
44:14
I, I tend to think that people often just get in such a habit of being disconnected that they, with the best of intentions, just forget to follow through.
And we're trying to make sure that we're rebuilding those habits.
So systems create the habits and habits are what follow through on the reconnecting and meeting those areas.
44:34
Speaker 2
You have a morning habit.
An evening habit helps us stay intentional to connect with each other, right?
44:41
Speaker 1
That's so that's a piece of the app because we want to make sure people are intentional.
The app itself has education pieces to it so people can understand more about what's happened, what's going on and where they need to move.
We have some assessments that are built into the app and then there are some exercises that I ask people to do on top of that twice a day.
45:00
So they pick something during the week that they're going to be intentional about and that depends on their situation.
They they get to build that.
We even built in a little help that if you're not sure, you can ask and it gives you feedback on that.
45:12
Speaker 3
So does your app target different demographics?
Those who are newly married?
Maybe Those who've been married a while.
45:19
Speaker 1
The actual demographic is of those who have hit the pause button and are going, yeah, we need to not be in this place.
So the demographic is it's paused and they want to get out of it.
45:28
Speaker 2
Regardless of where they are in their marriage.
45:30
Speaker 1
Newly married is not likely to use it because they haven't felt the pain of that yet, so yeah.
45:35
Speaker 2
Cool, man, that's awesome.
45:37
Speaker 3
We're going to go download your app.
I think that's going to add to our excitement of this new phase of our marriage.
45:44
Speaker 2
We have been using the Gottman card deck on Date Marriage and it's an excellent resource.
I think we're going to we.
45:52
Speaker 3
Check out.
45:52
Speaker 2
Yours as well well, and I think too just asking like we started asking each other at date night saying what excites you recently?
You know what?
Are you passionate?
46:01
Speaker 3
About lights you up.
46:02
Speaker 2
Yeah.
And then we just go back and forth and it allows for just some deeper connection.
46:08
Speaker 1
You're at the place where a date night can happen because you have the connection to pull it through.
46:12
Speaker 2
Right.
46:13
Speaker 3
And if you don't, the app may or may not hit that level, does it?
46:20
Speaker 1
So you're trying to rebuild to the place where you have all the connection you want, but it's kind of like getting in shape, right?
If I go to the gym, I'm moving towards getting in shape.
And now whatever that might mean, could be different for different people, but I'm working towards that.
It doesn't mean the first time I go in I'm like OK, £300 on that bench press and I'll be good to go.
46:40
Speaker 2
Yeah, right.
46:41
Speaker 1
We're building to that place, but wherever you want to build to is what we're trying to build to.
46:46
Speaker 2
That's great, yeah.
46:47
Speaker 3
Is there a fee with the app?
46:48
Speaker 1
It's a paid app most of the time.
I notice that when people have something for free it gets about that much attention.
Yep, we do what we invest in.
46:56
Speaker 3
You're right.
So hopefully our listeners who are on pause or at least not fully unpaused, this might be a good way to invest in yourself and in your relationship.
I think we will.
Yeah, that's great.
47:12
I'm excited about it.
47:14
Speaker 1
Unpauseyourmarriage.com is where you find that.
47:17
Speaker 2
OK.
47:17
Speaker 3
Great.
So as we are coming near to wrapping up our time with you here, Lee, are there some final messages, maybe something that you're just dying to?
47:29
Speaker 2
Like a high level take away.
47:31
Speaker 1
You know, the one I always like to to kind of hit home is that team.
You are the team.
Can you be the best player on the team?
If you use that, that will get you through a lot of the difficult stuff.
47:45
Speaker 3
Sounds like another North Star.
47:47
Speaker 1
You navigate as a team towards that North star, Yeah.
47:50
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Well, this has been great, yeah.
47:53
Speaker 1
Great conversation.
That's what we're trying to do.
Unpause your marriage.
Unpause your marriage.com.
47:57
Speaker 2
Oh, unpause your marriage.com.
47:58
Speaker 1
Now if somebody goes, we're past that, you know, we're on the edge.
That's the Save the Marriage system, which is a Save the marriage.com.
48:06
Speaker 3
OK.
And I know you have another program called Husband Boot Camp.
Is that a separate website as well or?
48:14
Speaker 1
We're actually converting that over to an app also that just we haven't finished that yet.
48:19
Speaker 2
That's.
48:19
Speaker 3
That's great, and that's for men who they want to be better husbands, but they aren't really sure how to make that happen, right?
48:27
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people realize they don't have the, especially men don't realize they didn't have an example of what that looks like, how to be a great husband.
And so we created the it's a 30 day boot camp.
So you've got a training and some exercises to do every day for that 30 days, and that gets you into shape.
48:45
Speaker 3
Well, I think a lot of our listeners are going to be interested in the things that you're producing and putting out there to help with better marriages.
Thank you from all of us at Marriage IQ.
Thank you so much.
48:54
Speaker 2
And thank you, everyone, for joining us today.
We hope that you've been able to take away the new path forward from Doctor Baucom.
And we hope to see you next time on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
