Episode 153: How to Listen So Your Spouse Feels Known
Stop Trying to Fix Everything: The Secret to Better Listening in Marriage
How to Listen So Your Spouse Feels Known: The Secret to Deeper Connection in Marriage
Have you ever told your spouse something important, only to discover a few days later that they don't remember it? Or have you listened to your partner explain something for several minutes, convinced you've already understood the point, while they feel increasingly frustrated because you haven't really heard them?
These moments are common in marriage. One partner wants to get straight to the point, while the other needs time to explain the details, explore their feelings, and make sense of the experience. Both may believe they're communicating, yet neither feels truly understood.
In a conversation with psychotherapist, couples therapist, and author Nancy Colier, Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Scott Hastings explore why listening is about much more than hearing words. At its heart, meaningful listening is about helping your spouse feel known.
Listening to Solve Problems vs. Listening to Connect
One of the biggest challenges in marriage is assuming that everyone communicates for the same reason.
Some people listen primarily to gather information and solve a problem. Once they've identified the main point, they feel ready to move forward. Others use conversation to connect, explore ideas, and share what they're experiencing internally. For them, the details aren't unnecessary extras; they're part of the connection itself.
This difference can create frustration on both sides.
Imagine one spouse explaining an upcoming schedule change. The other quickly grasps the main idea and mentally moves on. Later, when an important detail is forgotten, the first spouse feels ignored or unimportant. Meanwhile, the listener may feel overwhelmed by the amount of information and wonder why the conversation needs to continue.
Neither person necessarily intends to hurt the other. They're simply approaching communication with different expectations.
Nancy encourages couples to shift their focus from asking, "What do I need from this conversation?" to asking, "What is my spouse trying to communicate, and what do they need from me right now?"
That small change can transform the purpose of listening. Instead of trying to finish a conversation efficiently, you begin using it as an opportunity to understand your partner more deeply.
Feeling Heard Doesn't Mean Someone Has to Agree With You
When disagreements arise, couples can quickly become focused on proving who is right.
One person remembers a conversation happening a certain way, while the other insists it never happened. Before long, the original issue disappears beneath an argument about whose memory or interpretation is correct.
Nancy explains that people often become attached to being right because agreement from someone else makes them feel validated. When our partner challenges our version of events, it can feel as though they're challenging our credibility, identity, or worth.
But your partner having a different experience doesn't automatically make your experience invalid.
You can remember a conversation differently and still acknowledge that the other person genuinely experienced it another way. You can validate their feelings without agreeing with every conclusion they've reached.
Rather than treating a disagreement as a contest, try asking, "What are we really fighting for here?"
Sometimes the deeper need isn't to settle the facts. It's to feel acknowledged, respected, and understood.
As Nancy emphasizes, a healthy relationship makes room for both people's experiences. The goal isn't to erase differences but to create enough emotional safety that neither person has to fight to prove their reality deserves to exist.
When You're Not Available to Listen, Say So
Nobody can be fully attentive all the time. Work pressures, exhaustion, competing responsibilities, and everyday distractions can make meaningful conversations difficult.
The problem isn't always that someone lacks the desire to listen. Sometimes they simply don't have the emotional or mental capacity to engage at that moment.
Nancy suggests that honesty can be much more helpful than pretending to listen while mentally checking out.
Instead of allowing your attention to drift until your partner feels ignored, you might say, "I want to hear what you're telling me, but I'm overwhelmed right now. Can we sit down and talk about it later?"
This response communicates two important things: you recognize your partner's need for connection, and you're being honest about your own limitations.
It also gives you an opportunity to return to the conversation when you can be genuinely present.
The key is to follow through. Postponing a conversation should create space for connection, not become a way to avoid it indefinitely.
Stop Listening Through the Story You've Already Written
Over time, couples develop familiar patterns. You begin anticipating your spouse's reactions, finishing their sentences, and assuming you already know what they're going to say.
You might think, "Here he goes again," or, "I know exactly where this conversation is heading."
The moment that story takes over, curiosity disappears. Instead of listening to the person in front of you, you're responding to the version of them you've created in your mind.
Nancy encourages couples to practice what is often called a beginner's mind: approaching your partner as though there's still something new to discover.
Consider how you listened when you were first dating. You were curious about your partner's opinions, interests, dreams, and experiences. You asked questions because you genuinely wanted to know more.
Marriage can gradually replace that curiosity with familiarity. Yet people continue to change. What mattered to your spouse five years ago may not be what matters today.
Try asking, "What's this like for you right now?" or "Tell me more about what you're thinking."
You may discover something about your partner that you hadn't understood before.
Learn to Appreciate Your Differences
During the conversation, Scott offers a helpful analogy: Heidi's detailed way of communicating reminds him of the flowers she uses to beautify their home.
He might prefer to get straight to the point, just as he might be content with a simpler living space. Heidi, however, enjoys adding details that bring beauty, meaning, and a broader perspective.
What initially looks like unnecessary elaboration can be understood differently when viewed through the lens of appreciation.
Perhaps your spouse isn't complicating a simple story. Maybe they're inviting you into their experience.
Perhaps your partner's short, direct response isn't a sign of indifference. Maybe that's simply how they organize their thoughts.
Understanding these differences doesn't mean you must enjoy every communication style equally. It means making room for your partner to be different without automatically treating that difference as a flaw.
And this understanding works both ways. Partners who enjoy deeper conversations can also show curiosity about the topics their spouses find meaningful.
The goal isn't for one person to adopt the other's style completely. It's for both people to learn how to meet each other with greater understanding.
Tell Your Spouse What You Need
It's tempting to believe that someone who loves us should automatically know what we need. Unfortunately, even the people closest to us cannot read our minds.
If you want conversations about your dreams, family relationships, emotions, or future plans, say so. If you need your partner to slow down and listen without immediately offering solutions, explain that, too.
You might say, "I love talking with you about the movies we watch, but I'd also love for us to talk more about what's happening in our lives and what we're dreaming about for the future."
This kind of honesty gives your spouse a clearer understanding of how to connect with you.
It also helps prevent resentment from building around needs that have never been fully expressed.
Make Curiosity a Daily Practice
Becoming a better listener doesn't require a perfect communication system or a promise to get everything right forever.
It begins with small choices in ordinary moments.
Put aside distractions when your spouse is sharing something important. Ask questions instead of immediately offering solutions. Notice when you're preparing your response rather than listening. Acknowledge your partner's feelings even when you see the situation differently.
Most importantly, resist the temptation to believe you already know everything about the person you married.
As Nancy explains, listening is an opportunity to discover what is true for your partner in the present moment. You don't have to agree with everything they say. You simply have to be willing to understand their experience.
That willingness creates room for growth, change, and deeper intimacy.
Ultimately, the strongest marriages aren't necessarily those in which partners never misunderstand each other. They're the relationships in which both people feel safe enough to keep explaining themselves, asking questions, and discovering one another.
Because when your spouse feels genuinely heard and understood, they can feel loved-not just for who they were when you first met, but for who they are becoming today.
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0:02
Speaker 1
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast helping you become an intelligent spouse.
0:08
Speaker 2
I'm Heidi Hastings.
0:09
Speaker 1
And I'm Scott Hastings.
0:11
Speaker 2
We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to change the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun.
0:33
Speaker 1
So, Heidi, why is it sometimes that I can tell you something that might take 10 words and you tell me the same thing and it takes you 3000?
0:49
Speaker 2
Because I put the detail into it.
0:52
Speaker 1
I think I speak for a lot of men everywhere, a lot of husbands.
I can get to the meat of a story of what happened in literally 20 seconds.
1:01
Speaker 2
But you leave a lot out.
1:03
Speaker 1
But I hit all the important stuff.
1:06
Speaker 2
So that's probably why I'm always telling you.
I told you this already.
Why didn't you listen to me?
1:10
Speaker 1
I think we're hitting on a nerve that's been perpetuated for thousands of years over many, many couples.
1:18
Speaker 2
I would guess you're probably right, and we have a really great guest today to help us tease some of this apart and give us some ideas about what makes a good listener in marriage.
1:30
Speaker 1
Yes, I'd be very interested in listening because one of my goals this year is to be an elite listener to Heidi, and I don't know how well I'm doing on that.
1:46
We'll see.
We'll see.
1:47
Speaker 2
We'll see yours not over yet.
Today we have with us Nancy Collier.
She's a psychotherapist, an interfaith minister and an author of lots of books.
But two of them that are pretty interesting are The Emotionally Exhausted Woman.
Love that title.
2:03
And her new book that's going to be coming out soon, narratives, let go of the stories that keep you stuck.
Nancy's a a national speaker on relationships and women's issues and mindfulness.
And she's been featured on Good Morning America, the New York Times, and she's a regular Blogger for Psychology Today.
2:21
And she's also a consultant for professional athletes and artists.
So welcome, Nancy, and thanks for joining us today.
2:32
Speaker 1
Our studio audience.
2:34
Speaker 3
I love it, I love it.
2:36
Speaker 2
Nancy, you're joining us from New York City today, right?
2:38
Speaker 3
Yes, yes I am.
2:40
Speaker 1
I look, you're coming from and we were really interested in some of the things that you're talking about in regards to communication between men and women.
There are differences, and I think I could speak for a lot of guys and Heidi can speak for a lot of women, that there's kind of the seems like this impasse sometimes between men and women communicating and this art of listening to each other, listening so we feel not only heard but understood.
3:12
Speaker 3
Right.
Can I ask a question right off the top?
3:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, go ahead.
3:17
Speaker 3
So Heidi, when Scott listens, because I wouldn't assume that I know your experience, but when Scott listens for the facts and you know down to the 30 words figured out, where does that leave you in terms of feeling heard?
3:38
What happens for you with the other 29170 words?
3:45
Speaker 2
I feel frustrated.
I feel ignored, maybe not valued.
Sometimes I feel frustrated, especially when it's something that I've talked about with our plans, like important information that then puts us kind of in a spot that's rough.
4:03
Speaker 1
But efficiency is so important, my love.
4:07
Speaker 3
OK, so frustrated not heard it sounds.
I'm going to try a word out, but a little.
4:14
Speaker 2
Lonely, probably, at times.
4:16
Speaker 1
That tracks.
4:17
Speaker 3
And can I ask Scott, when the other 2970 are happening?
You feel how after you've got it, you've got the 30 nutshell.
What's your experience when you have to stay in the game for a while?
4:33
Speaker 1
I feel overwhelmed with words and a little frustrated.
However, I remind myself that this is part of the package, right?
I didn't marry a man, I married a woman.
4:48
There you go.
She, I think just by brain Physiology, anatomy tends to be more verbal and enjoys verbality and expects to be listened to all the time.
And I don't think this is unusual.
I think this is very common in a lot of marriages, a lot of relationships.
5:07
And it's this impasse almost right, because my brain goes to I want to cinch up what is being said.
5:15
Speaker 3
Right, here's a difference.
So men in general, of course, we're vastly generalizing listen to solve the problem at hand.
I have enough facts now I can figure out how to make the situation different than it is.
5:33
Women listen and speak to connect.
And so that's a much rounder package, if you will.
They want to communicate, not to give the facts that are needed to solve a problem, but to let you, the partner, know who they are and what they're living and what they're experiencing through this telling of the tale.
6:00
So we have very different goals here and what makes for real intimacy and a successful relationship is when we can get out of our me and what I need to happen in this relationship, in this moment, in this story.
6:21
And open to what is it that let's say in your case, what is Heidi trying to communicate here?
What is it that Heidi needs in this interaction?
So we're going to kind of leave our me, our little me, my needs.
6:37
This is what communication means to me over here.
And we're going to actually become a little bit selfless and say what's happening for Heidi in this moment?
What is she communicating, really, and what does she need to feel known?
6:54
Because in the best relationships, as a couples therapist, I see we're actually curious about what's true for the other person, not just whether that jives with what's true for us.
So it's a very different goal.
7:11
Does that make sense to either of?
7:12
Speaker 1
You.
It makes sense However I do have a little issue with this yeah yeah.
I don't think I can be self aware 100% of the time.
Of course I need to be aware of my wife's commutative needs and think about what she's thinking like as I live my life.
7:31
Because on this program we try to be extremely real and authentic.
So meaning everything we talk about in this program should be true not only in the public square but also behind our closed doors at night.
7:48
We should be able to explain the human nature across everything.
7:53
Speaker 3
Right.
7:54
Speaker 1
And I'm just being very honest that sometimes, a lot of times actually, I'm not going to be thinking about how you are going to respond to this.
8:02
Speaker 2
But with that said, one of our four cornerstones is insight, which is you're self aware and you're looking at how yourself is impacting other people and what you're doing is impacting your partner, right?
8:17
Speaker 3
And also in addition to that self aware and I can change and I can grow and do I get it right every time?
Of course not.
But in those situations, I would say, too, what's wrong with saying, hey, I'm not available right now for this sort of conversation.
8:35
I'm recognizing your need to connect through the telling of this story.
And I don't have the bandwidth.
That's all we're learning really, is to own what's true for ourselves, which is that we're also uniquely human.
8:52
The whole miracle and catastrophe that we are.
Yes.
So sometimes I have that in me.
What changes everything though.
And I want to run this by you, Heidi, that if I can say to you, hey, babe, I get it that you're needing to feel heard right now or to be listened to.
9:12
And I've got 1000 other things going on today.
Can we do this later or I don't have that right now?
Now we're together, right?
How would that land?
9:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, that would feel good.
I think what's more frustrating is when I think he's listening, he's really checked out in his head when what I said, you know, because the 30 words have been surpassed.
9:39
And so now it's important information that I thought I'd talk to him about.
So yeah, if he maybe sees his brain checking out, if he could say something like that, I think I would feel really like great.
9:53
Speaker 3
So one tool that you might practice with too is rather than what we do as humans is generally get irritated like I've told you this 19 times and then not responding at all.
10:10
I will say I have a similar situation in my marriage of 26 years on the 35th time of saying when that particular date needs to happen.
I just stop saying anything, right?
And say I've already said that and I'm not going to.
10:27
But if there's a way early on, I've learned the hard way to say I statements as we know, right?
I'm not giving you the information again, but when I've shared with you something and then I'm asked again, it really makes me feel like I'm not heard.
10:46
And so I don't want to go back into the details of this and be irritated.
I just want to say what that experience for me is like.
What would be the response you would imagine Scott would come back with?
10:58
Speaker 2
Probably telling me that I didn't really tell him.
11:01
Speaker 3
Gaslighting.
Brilliant, brilliant.
11:05
Speaker 1
Well, it's only gaslighting if it's intentional, right?
11:09
Speaker 3
So no, I wanted to ask a follow up to Heidi there, which is, do you feel you have the courage or the capacity to say, hey, that's something I've already said and when you don't log it, it's really frustrating for me.
11:26
Speaker 2
Yeah.
And I think what this really comes down to and why we and so many other couples really need these listening skills and, and these things that you're teaching us is then it becomes my word against his word.
I know I already said that.
I know you didn't say that.
11:42
I would have heard it if you said that.
And so then it comes to kind of a standstill of one of us is going crazy.
And I'm not really sure which one it is.
And we both think we're right.
And so I think backing up before we get to those points.
11:58
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
11:59
Speaker 2
Is going to be really important.
12:00
Speaker 3
Is it important in that moment where you're hearing Heidi, to recognize that you've checked out?
I'm noticing I'm not taking in information anymore.
And so could we reconvene this later?
12:18
Would you have the awareness to catch it in your own mind?
12:22
Speaker 1
I believe so, yeah.
OK.
I think a lot of this happens where we've gotten to the point where we've been intentional about this, right?
It was a problem.
We sat down with one of our couples counsel.
We talked about this.
I think what we do now is, hey, you know, you might be right, I might be wrong, you may have said this and a commitment to recommitment, to pay more attention.
12:47
Speaker 3
Default.
12:48
Speaker 1
To what my wife says.
12:49
Speaker 3
And also in those moments where we're fighting over whether the kitchen cabinet should be closed or open, who's right?
Stop and say what are we really fighting for here and is it that we want to be heard we're stuck in content where can we meet about.
13:09
I want you to feel heard and I want you to feel heard right 'cause that's the nature of intimacy is to feel heard and known so immediately dropping out of.
We're stuck in right and wrong.
Yeah.
Can we find the place back to I care about you feeling hurt.
13:27
So you're going to start to notice right and wrong as these flags.
Oh, we're stuck in right and wrong land, right.
And what we're really trying to do in a sense with right and wrong is trying to shore up our own identity.
If I'm right, you said it or you didn't say it.
13:45
And I feel valid.
I feel legitimate.
But that's not where we want to live all through the day.
We have to prove we're right about that.
Our opinion about that is valid.
And we constantly need to be our partner down enough to say you're right, right.
14:00
Oh, now I feel I can exist again.
That's what is at the heart of listening, where who we are and our value and our worth is not dependent upon on the rightness of our opinions.
14:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, I love that so much.
Identity is our first cornerstone.
And you're right, sometimes what we think is shoring up our own identity is actually enmeshed, or it's a reflected sense of self where my identity is dependent upon Him.
14:33
Speaker 3
Imagine a more fragile place you couldn't be in until I get you to acknowledge your story is wrong and my story is right.
I don't deserve empathy for my experience.
I can't stand in my experience.
14:48
I can't own it and I'm somehow less because you won't validate my opinion about this or my version of reality.
The fact is, we're all living in our own private cinemas watching different movies.
15:03
We have different versions of reality.
You're a character in my story.
I'm a character in your story.
So we've got to get out of this.
15:12
Speaker 2
And I'm the hero in my story, right?
15:14
Speaker 3
Of course, the protagonist, yes, but the more that we can drop our narrative about ourselves, we're this and we believe this and we're right.
We said that, you know, and just sort of listen for what's her experience or what's his experience that he's trying to convey.
15:34
I can validate that without it damaging myself so that your truth and his truth, it happened, it didn't happen, they can coexist, it doesn't matter.
What are we fighting for otherwise.
But who cares?
15:49
Speaker 1
So, Nancy, does that mean so it sounds to me that if I'm allowing for my wife to possibly have said something that I didn't hear or maybe I was wrong about something that happened?
16:03
Speaker 3
Shocking.
16:04
Speaker 1
Or that?
No, ask my wife.
I think I'm pretty good at acknowledging when I'm wrong.
It's taken a long time, but I think though, that some people might misunderstand that they start to lose their identity if they give in.
16:23
And, and I think what we're all trying to say here is that's not the case.
You're not losing your identity.
You're just maybe supporting a higher level of living.
16:32
Speaker 3
That's what you're doing.
16:33
Speaker 1
I think just living in comfort with is paradox, right?
16:39
Speaker 3
Both hand right, A healthy relationship is built not on, but it's built on.
And yeah, my experience and your experience for some reason taught very young to put, but between those when they are different, forget about contradictory, just different.
16:59
And that your experience, if it's different from mine, is a threat to mine being able to also be true.
And once we really get it in ourselves that reality is utterly relative.
17:15
And so if we can give someone else the dignity of knowing what their experience was and really want to know that without, well, am I protected?
If there's is that, then is mine valid?
That's very primitive.
17:31
And then we're always stuck in this fighting over whose reality is right.
Both are right.
One of the greatest things about when you wake up to this truth is that you can listen to people because you're not listening for whether you agree, whether threatens, or whether you have to slam your reality down their throat.
17:56
You're just listening.
You got no.
It's almost like you got no skin in the game other than to understand their experience.
So your experience is you said that.
OK, then our heart is open.
Well, we didn't say it.
18:12
We're defending against little me.
So that will change your whole reality.
Living from both hands.
Both are true.
It's about trying to understand, not be understood.
Understand that what I'm hearing for Haiti is that talking and words are a way of sort of exploring something and seeing what could develop that might be new or what imagination might come from the talking about it.
18:47
It's a birthing process.
And that for you, it's more of a sort of packaging process.
Let's get it down into something and then now I want it.
And that's very male.
And that for Heidi, it's more expansive.
19:02
We just don't what I'll learn about the other person.
19:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, I love the birthing idea, the analogy, because.
19:08
Speaker 2
That's that's.
19:09
Speaker 1
Literally what you do, you birth children.
19:12
Speaker 2
Well and I also always am looking to gain knowledge.
19:17
Speaker 3
That's what I'm hearing.
19:18
Speaker 2
Always want expanded perspectives, expanded knowledge.
Like I want us to create something together through conversation.
19:27
Speaker 3
That's right.
And also because, Heidi, you're an intelligent person with a great mind, this is a launching place for you.
For Scott, it's more of a destination.
Let's wrap it up.
And that birthing, for a lot of women, it's about synergy.
19:44
It's like, what are we going to create together?
19:47
Speaker 1
Yeah, I like this analogy.
Yeah.
19:50
Speaker 3
It's very different.
What words have the potential for?
19:55
Speaker 1
So ultimately, this is a question I think every man deals with, whether they know it or not.
20:00
Speaker 2
And I think this is going to be a great episode for women listening to share with their husband.
20:05
Speaker 1
This happens so often in a relationship and it gets to the point for the guy.
And I could.
So I could go 2 routes too.
I could listen to because you want me to, or I could listen to you because now I am invested in you.
20:24
I'm invested in you, and now I want to do it.
And there's AI might be doing the exact same thing.
I might be looking at you, I might be nodding my head at you, but two totally different experiences in between my ears.
20:39
Speaker 2
You're going to like me a lot better with the second one.
20:41
Speaker 1
Yeah, because I'm invested now in you.
20:45
Speaker 3
But you're also invested, which you sound like is helpful for you in your own growth.
You're kind of jumping off the diving board there into the I'm doing something unknown here for me.
21:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.
21:00
Speaker 3
Right.
So you've got skin in the game there.
21:03
Speaker 1
Well, that's a good point because it's not just doing something for you, right?
It is like, hey, look, we can learn something new here together.
It might be a little scary.
21:13
Speaker 2
I'm expending my own identity.
21:14
Speaker 1
Yeah.
So it's a it ends up being a win win.
21:17
Speaker 3
It's a win, win.
21:18
Speaker 1
I want to become better.
I want to become a better man.
I want to become a better husband.
I want to become somebody who at the end of my life, but my final breaths look back and say I had a freaking awesome life.
I don't have regrets.
That's the person I want to become.
21:34
Speaker 3
What's in the way of that now?
If if that were to happen now, what would be in the way?
21:39
Speaker 1
I'm trying to to set up institutionalized, I guess certain behaviors so that I can lock it in.
But you're saying, hey, let's just take it moment by moment, which?
21:54
Speaker 3
I'm going to try this thing.
I'm trying it.
That's all we're doing.
The thing that we want to do before we die.
I say I call it die before you die.
Die to this individual self, right?
So when we really fall in love with the truth, we don't love it because necessarily we even like it, but we love it because it's true.
22:17
It's not just about defending this me until it goes into the ground.
It's I want to know what's true.
I want to know what's true about my partner because that's love is to really want to know when somebody and Heidi, I want to check this with you.
22:32
But when you feel that Scott is really interested in knowing what not whether he agrees or likes, but with what you're living, what your experience is to feel that kind of heard.
What do you walk away feeling like A.
22:47
Speaker 2
Queen like a queen feeling royal.
22:50
Speaker 1
I know when she knows that I'm listening to her intently that everything is better.
22:57
Speaker 3
And even Scott, if you just want to get to the bedroom, listening is the way to the bedroom for women.
Foreplay happens here in feeling heard.
Feeling genuinely and heard doesn't mean I like it or don't.
23:12
I can't say that enough.
It's hey babe, I want to know what your real experience is.
23:18
Speaker 1
Heard and I would say probably add understood too, yeah.
23:22
Speaker 2
You know, Nancy, I, I was talking to a woman yesterday who feels a lot of frustration because the only thing her husband talks to her about or listens to her about or converses with her about is the movie they just watched.
And she's so frustrated.
23:38
She just says I'm so much more than that.
23:42
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
23:42
Speaker 2
To live my whole life having this narrow, narrow, narrow conversation pattern that leaves out 99% of who I am.
This is a what we're looking at.
It's not even about me and I.
I don't think she's the only woman who feels that way.
23:58
Speaker 1
Well, This is why we're having this conversation.
I think this is everywhere because a lot of women have this expansive or whatever, you know, in their brain, which we can go, we can go through the anatomy on it, but that's not this episode.
24:11
Speaker 3
So right there clearly something was interesting to Heidi about bringing that in, right?
That right there is a shutdown of there might have been a more skillful way to invite that what interests her about that which is not that's not for this time, right.
24:30
I will say there is a link here just in brief, which is that again, this experience of feeling listened to for a woman means what that movie means to me.
What it brings up in me what my experience is what my feelings are about it what my thoughts are know me where many not just men but women to they want to live in the land of facts and the concrete and the this not what it is for most, a movie is just a way of knowing each other through what does it bring up in you and that would be something for this woman you talked to Heidi to bring to her husband, which is he love.
25:16
I'm and I always do that Hey babe, hey love because it invites a kind of OK, this could be challenging material, but we start with hey love.
I'm not so interested in what happened to this character this or that.
I'm more interested in what did that bring up in you, and I would love the question asked for me as well.
25:35
We have to sometimes script people, right?
You know, the question I would love to be asked actually, honey, is not whether I thought the person was going to be killed or not killed, but what was I living as I was watching that.
25:51
Speaker 1
I agree with that.
I think that's a.
It's a very valid point.
25:55
Speaker 2
Expensive.
25:57
Speaker 1
At the same time, what if the wife really just dove in and said to her husband, this lady who spoke with you the other day, tell me more husband.
Tell me more about this movie that excited you.
26:13
Speaker 3
Could go both ways.
26:14
Speaker 1
To go both ways, to go to open up, because here's a guy who clearly doesn't expand on other things, but he expands on the things that are meaningful to him.
And perhaps you'll have the wife dive in.
26:28
Speaker 3
Model it.
You're talking about modeling how she wants.
26:31
Speaker 1
No, she could model, but she could also just be very interested in why is he so passionate about this?
26:36
Speaker 3
The difficulty there though, if I can jump in sometimes, is the one that's hurting.
In this case, sounds like it's the wife.
26:46
Speaker 2
They may, they might both be, but I would say yes.
26:49
Speaker 3
From this place it sounds like the man is OK with talking about we don't know, maybe he would like to dive in more.
But the person coming with the difficulty and feeling not known and feeling lonely, there is this woman who is only known in this little tiny box.
27:11
So to come from that place, when we're a little bit further along in the process, we might be able to open our heart to say, tell me, what do you love about this character?
And when we feel deprived though, and shut down, right, we're mostly interested in being able to express.
27:31
I would love to know more maybe, and I would love for you to know more about other aspects of me rather than just what I think about the movie.
So we are starting from the place of the person presenting the problem and to give her the next task which is now dive into his way of being might feel almost like it's validating that way of connecting.
27:57
Speaker 2
She might agree with you, I think.
27:59
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'm feeling that from this woman.
Just intuitively, that would feel like I'm strengthening a system that I don't get what I need in.
28:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I might push back a little.
28:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:13
Speaker 1
I generally agree with what you're saying before we go down the road of the woman is always or usually the one that's feeling not listened to.
28:23
Speaker 2
Well, I think she was talking about in this specific case.
28:26
Speaker 3
Yes, in this case not.
28:27
Speaker 1
In this case, however, I think what we're setting a stage though, that women are more verbal.
They seem to anyway require more back and forth communication.
I might just be jumping ahead here, but it seems like we're navigating toward women are the ones who are not heard more than men.
And this might be true.
28:43
I'm just saying for those men who may feel that way, you know, this would be a great way, but.
28:50
Speaker 2
They will not listen.
28:51
Speaker 1
To, to, yeah, to model to.
And like you were saying, Nancy earlier, say, hey, you know, I like this.
Let's talk a little bit more about this, other things that are important to me.
So it sounds to me like you're spoon feeding your spouse a little bit.
You're training them what your needs are.
29:07
Yeah, your needs to addressing your needs.
29:09
Speaker 3
We have this fantasy that everyone should know what we need.
We don't.
That's part of the enmeshment that you should know what I need.
That's why I was inviting this woman in a very loving way to say, hey, I love talking about films with you and I know that juices you.
29:28
And sometimes my experience is that there's so many aspects of me that I would love for you to know about also.
And sometimes I really wish that we could talk there too.
So I'm just inviting her to share her experience directly as opposed to trying to work with it or model it or do the dog training.
29:52
Give the treat when it's done right.
Just go at the thing and say sometimes I'd also love to talk about, I don't know, my relationship with my sister in the way we talk about a film.
It's a part of me, but so on and so on.
Like for.
30:07
Speaker 2
My hopes and my dreams, and a shared vision for us in the future.
30:11
Speaker 3
Yeah.
And sometimes I'll find that when I first met you, it seemed like you had interest in all these parts of me.
And over time, it seems like we've gotten in a much more narrow lane, and I'd like us to get back on the highway here, real wide highway.
30:26
Speaker 1
You know, that requires a lot of cognitive effort to get out of our rut.
30:32
Speaker 2
But if you want good relationships, that's required.
30:35
Speaker 1
We just had an episode on this.
30:37
Speaker 3
Yes it does.
30:38
Speaker 1
And routines are so comfortable and I don't want to get too far off on that, but I mean, they're so comfortable including our communication routines.
And that comes back to the listening.
30:50
Speaker 3
That's right, and it comes back from that desire in you to grow.
30:53
Speaker 1
So those two are listeners out there, women, men, the wives, the husbands.
Share this with your spouse.
Like, how are we going to get out of the listening rut that we're in?
And we're all in them if we'd we've been married long enough.
We are in a rut.
31:11
How do we cognitively push out of this?
31:14
Speaker 3
Right.
So good question.
I would say practice listening to understand, to really understand what is the experience my partner is sharing, not about the content, not whether you agree.
Listen to understand their experience, not to be understood.
31:32
And also listen without forming narratives.
Oh, here she goes again.
Here he goes again, right?
And then we're boom, we're shut down.
This is what's happening.
We write the storyline.
We cast them as that character.
Listen as if you don't know what's coming at all.
31:51
Really open your ears to, I don't know, this person may have been this for 20 years.
Can I understand their experience today?
That feels like love.
Giving them the open space and the dignity to share with you what's true for them.
32:09
And listening is the ultimate gift.
32:12
Speaker 1
It sounds to me like maybe listening to as if we're on our first date.
32:17
Speaker 3
That's it.
Be a beginner's mind.
You know that experience.
32:21
Speaker 2
I'm different this year than I was last year.
32:23
Speaker 1
That's true.
So it is like a first date.
32:26
Speaker 3
Allow me to evolve.
32:28
Speaker 2
And vice versa.
32:29
Speaker 3
Curiosity.
Listen, with real curiosity, you know, we lose curiosity over marriages because, oh, we know them.
And that is really a way of destroying any room for growth, any room for change, right?
32:44
We are works in progress as human beings, and we change every single day.
Yeah.
32:51
Speaker 2
That's beautiful.
32:52
Speaker 1
This is going to take a lifetime, Nancy.
32:54
Speaker 3
You don't have to do it for a lifetime.
Just today we're going to practice it.
32:59
Speaker 2
Yeah, right into that.
I think you've left us with a cliffhanger here because your new book narratives let go of the stories that keep you stuck is a big part of that.
And so maybe do you address in your book?
33:12
Speaker 3
I do very much.
33:14
Speaker 2
That will kind of take us to that next step.
33:16
Speaker 3
The book is part self stories.
What are the stories we tell ourselves and then we have to go out and recreate.
And Part 2 is about how do we do this in relationships?
How do we build storylines on our partner that prevent the relationship from growing, but also how do we end up in relationships where we spend a great deal of energy trying not to be the character that they've written for us in their story?
33:45
So we're not in the truth, right?
We're defending against a version of ourselves that was never true.
And that brings in projection and all sorts of defense mechanisms.
But where do these play out in relationships where we're not in the truth, we're in somebody's story that is been controlling the other.
34:05
He already sees me as that I'll do everything in my power not to be that.
This is not a life we want, right?
And then the last two sections are more global.
What are the cultural stories we have around relationships and so on.
And then what does it mean to really live free of a narrative meeting the moment freshly?
34:25
I don't know.
Yeah, living.
34:27
Speaker 2
In I don't know.
34:29
Speaker 3
I don't know is the most liberating mantra we could ever offer ourselves to not No, it's not about getting the facts.
It's, I don't know, Isn't that a gift?
34:40
Speaker 2
I like that a lot.
34:42
Speaker 3
Yeah, How could we stand in this, on this planet with that spinning in the Milky Way, that there is experience at all and imagine anything to be known?
It's already absurd to some degree.
So it's we finding that sense of awe.
34:58
Speaker 2
Oh yeah.
34:59
Speaker 1
So we're finding, but never knowing.
35:02
Speaker 2
We're exploring and we're wonder and awe.
I mean, that is what brings joy to life.
35:09
Speaker 1
And that, I'll be honest, that's a little bit scary, but I think that's true ultimately.
35:14
Speaker 2
It's exciting.
35:15
Speaker 1
It's exciting because it's it's unknown.
35:18
Speaker 3
That's your growing edge.
35:20
Speaker 1
I have no idea when we first met met what would happen.
All I knew is we were attracted to each other and really liked each other.
And I'm just thinking, all I know is I want to get to know this, this mysterious woman.
35:33
Speaker 3
And so when those other 2970 words are happening, we're coming from that same first date place, which is I don't know what this means or what we could birth here together.
I don't know.
And I'm going to surrender to this process, which is not my natural process, but it's my growing edge process.
35:58
And I don't know what kind of marriage I'll have if both of us feel really heard and known.
36:03
Speaker 1
I think that's probably the highest definition of a best marriage that I can think of.
We both feel heard and known.
36:11
Speaker 2
And love, like you said, Nancy.
36:13
Speaker 3
That's where love comes from, heard and known.
36:16
Speaker 1
Or at least known for right now.
36:18
Speaker 3
That's it, yeah.
36:20
Speaker 2
Well, Nancy, this has been so fantastic.
We appreciate you joining us.
Thank you very much.
And just kind of expanding our minds a little bit about listening.
36:28
Speaker 3
And I want to follow up update on how all this plays out.
36:33
Speaker 2
OK it sounds good.
And are you doing a pre sale or something?
36:37
Speaker 3
Yes.
So Nancy collier.com, it'll be available everywhere books are, it will be available for pre-order, I think it Amazon all of those mid-october.
36:47
Speaker 1
Is that Collier one or two L's OK?
Nancy collier.com OK.
36:52
Speaker 3
Correct.
Yes.
36:54
Speaker 2
Great.
36:55
Speaker 3
All right, delightful.
36:56
Speaker 1
Thank you everyone for joining us today.
We hope that you've been able to really learn and dig in today.
Share this with someone that you love, share it with friends, family, please.
That'd be the best thing that we could want from you.
And we hope to see you on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
