Episode 80. Sexy Marriage Radio Meets Marriage IQ: Dr. Corey Allan on Identity & Intimacy (Part 1)
How to Fix a Marriage After Conflict: The Secret to Recovering Well
When we picture “great marriages,” we often imagine constant harmony—two people who never fight, never falter, never fail. But let’s be honest: that’s not real life.
As Dr. Corey Allen shared with us on Marriage IQ, even strong marriages take hard hits. For him, one of the lowest points came at a Texas mall food court when his wife slid her wedding ring across the table and said, “I’m done.”
It was the consequence of an affair, and it could have been the end. But instead of walking away, Corey chose therapy—not to “fix” his wife, but to face himself. For two years he worked on growing up, getting honest, and learning how to show up differently. His marriage didn’t heal overnight. But step by step, they recovered.
Why Recovery Matters More Than Perfection
Think about it: we all lose our footing sometimes. We say things we regret. We pull away when we should lean in. We react instead of respond.
Great marriages aren’t defined by the absence of those moments. They’re defined by the ability to repair. To recover. To take ownership, regroup, and move forward together.
Shortening the Gap
In the middle of a blow-up, you’re not going to stop, breathe, and analyze your childhood patterns. That’s not how brains work under stress. But over time, we can shorten the gap between reaction and reflection. Maybe at first it takes weeks to circle back and apologize. Then it takes days. Then hours. Eventually, it might be minutes.
That’s growth. And every shortened gap builds trust.
What Recovery Looks Like
Recovery can look as simple as:
Saying, “I overreacted—can we start again?”
Owning your part, even if it’s only 10%.
Asking, “What do you need right now?” instead of defending yourself.
Choosing to stay in the room—even when it feels easier to withdraw.
These aren’t grand gestures. They’re daily choices that tell your spouse: “I value us more than I value being right.”
Final Thoughts
This week, notice the next time you mess up (spoiler: you will!). Instead of spiraling in shame or doubling down in blame, practice recovery. Take a breath, admit your part, and start again.
Because a great marriage isn’t about avoiding mistakes. It’s about learning to repair—and choosing each other after the fall.
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0:02
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast for the intelligent spouse.
I'm Doctor Heidi Hastings.
And I'm Doctor Scott Hastings.
We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to transform the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little.
0:31
Fun.
Hello, welcome back to another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
We're so glad that you're back today wanting to learn more.
You guys are so awesome.
0:47
We are really privileged today, Heidi, to have a special guest to kind of help us pick apart different parts of our identity, who we are and how that applies in marriage.
That's right.
Today we are really very blessed to have with us Doctor Corey Allen.
1:06
Welcome to marriage IQ.
Corey, we're glad to have you on today.
This will be fun.
It's so exciting.
So Corey, one of the things that we teach here on Marriage IQ, we have 4 cornerstones.
They all start with I because it all starts with I, me, myself, and I.
The pathway to a scintillating life together begins with me, and so identity is the first cornerstone, and we're interested in you.
1:32
Corey knowing about you.
Knowing about you, what drove you to kind of get into this space and what do you find meaning from as far as doing this kind of work?
Well, I was raised in a family that my father's a psychologist, sociologist background, my sister's a social worker, My mom's crazy is the joke that we share.
1:53
And and I'm a marriage family therapist.
So I knew I was heading into the field from early on.
I started in the ministry and then did a three-year stint in the mortgage business world just basically to repair and survive or you know, fix our marriage again because it was destroyed during ministry from my doing a lot of that.
2:14
And so I then I went back to school knowing I was going to get into helping in counseling world somehow.
And then once I got into the PhD program, marriages kept coming to the surface of what was important and also what was going on with Pam and I.
We had had a transformative 5 or 6 years along those lines coming from the ministry and going into the field.
2:36
And so I just saw the power of the couple hood matters.
And so I started just diving into everything I could while I was in school, started blogging.
That was back in the day and when blogging was just getting started.
And any time I wrote on sex that became well involved with the audience, people would comment more emails would come in.
2:59
And so then it became AI came across this podcast thing like, hey, this needs to be talked about in depth.
And so we started Sexy Marriage Radio.
I mean, it was with a colleague at that point.
And so that was October 2011 when we kicked that thing off with the first episode, and we've been going ever since because we believe that if marriages are our thriving, everything else in the community is better.
3:24
So.
In the family, in the community, and our nation, our world.
That's what we've kind of found too, Corey, is that it really starts with the family, the seams of our society, our culture.
They start with family and actually they start with a couple, with a married couple and it's kind of a a passion for us if we can just help educate people.
3:52
And it looks like you kind of came to that same conclusion, educating people in this way.
I guess in your vein more along the sexual experience in a married couple.
We're excited.
Here's some.
Insights we we use sex as the hook large sexy marriage radio it because that we want people have vibrant sex.
4:11
But one of the things this is one of the best compliments I got and this is a guy that's in a mastermind group with me and now I'm a part of this group.
This isn't something I'm just running.
This group's been running for 10 years now.
He's a psychologist, and he would tell his clients early on, hey, listen to Sexy Marriage Radio.
4:27
But listen to about 8 to 10 episodes because, yeah, it's about sex.
But what you're going to find out is it's about life.
It's about living a better life.
It's about being a better you.
Because that's the same kind of thing you're describing, Scott.
That identity is about me, right?
I believe marriage is designed to expose me to me.
4:46
It's a great reflection back to me of of my shortcomings, my insecurities, my weaknesses, my my strengths, all of it.
And when I can challenge myself to become better, my marriage becomes better.
So you hit on a second cornerstone.
5:02
Well, no third, and that is insight starts with I right.
And you just talked about this insight.
In order for us to to become this person that we want and the marriage that we want, we have to look at ourselves.
5:19
And that's what you did.
And so was this Corey, tell me, was this during the time you said there's a five year period where you and Pam had some rough times.
Is this something that you kind of learned during that period of time?
5:34
Or during your doctoral program.
Or so the impetus probably started when it was at the lowest of the low for for me personally, and then also maritally, oddly enough, it was at the Town East Mall in Mesquite, TX, where we were having a dinner at a food court.
5:52
And she handed the ring back to me.
What?
And that's what happens when you have an affair.
So I get it.
And it was like, all right, you're all right, I get it.
But not yet.
I'm not, Not yet.
Give me.
I need to get my life in order, right?
6:08
And because that she kind of took it to a different level of seriousness.
I was still thinking, oh, we're going to be fine.
And she was like, no, we're not.
So what I really had to do and what I launched on into the next two years with some pretty good therapy, with a great therapist of just fixing my life as a man, as just growing up, dealing with adulthood better.
6:33
Because at that time I was a 27 year old teenager and I was an idiot in a lot of ways.
And I still am at times.
But it's, it's that element of wait a second, I need to just really deal with myself better.
And so that kind of started it.
6:50
And then when I got into grad school and I came across Doctor Snarsh who who I did all that.
I've I've done 15 years of training with him and went to everything he offered largely.
And I'm going to another one that the team that's leading it at since his passing, I'm doing another intensive in November with people.
7:10
So it's one of those where you can't escape you in that theory.
And so it just makes so much sense.
And Pam and I kind of adopted it and I learned it.
I don't necessarily teach her, but our conversations kind of challenge each other in it, and that's what's now launched us on the path we've been on for the last decade, decade and a half now.
7:33
So in the Doctor Schnarge vein, there were a lot of things, I'm guessing when you were given the ring back, that you needed to look at in yourself and figure out in yourself.
Can you share with us just a little bit of what that path looks like?
7:51
Well, that I can only do that from retroactive because in the moment it just scared me, right, it was.
Like you weren't planning for the marriage to end, It sounds like necessary.
Well, I, I kind of knew, I mean, obviously when you disclose, because I disclosed the affair and, and then we kind of worked together for a little bit, started piercing some stuff together.
8:12
But it was in that time that it was the lowest of the lows.
I hadn't lost my job yet because when that came out of the church, that's I got fired, which I should have 'cause it was a break of trust in, in, in character.
And I was in AI was in a role as a minister.
And it's like that's, that's unforgivable.
And that's in a church sense like that, you know, as far as a leadership, as a leadership side, grace still abounds.
8:34
Let's let's be clear, but.
Thank goodness, right?
Yes indeed, But it's one of those that as I look back at it, I was basically forced to.
I wouldn't have said it back then, but the question I would have been asking myself had I known what I know now is OK.
8:52
If I look at my life as it stands, as a 272829 year old young adult, would I want to be married to me?
And the answer would have very quickly been no, because I had a lot of only doing things halfway hiding things lie, you know, the, the subtle, simple skewing lies, the posing, the play the role well, but I was just playing a role.
9:20
I wasn't actually me in it.
And so I just kind of started realizing, wait a second, there is a lot of things I got to get better at.
I got to become more congruent in as far as what do I really like?
Who am I really?
What are the things I that drive me and I'm passionate about?
9:37
And I had to do some deep dive work and that was so, so good to do.
That identity piece coming up over and over as part of the healing.
You know, Corey, some some people never ask themselves those questions in their entire lives.
Absolutely.
I know there are a lot of people who do not ask themselves these questions, and yet here you are, how you're 27.
10:01
Well, this I wouldn't ask myself that.
At that point, looking back, that's the question, I put it.
I would have.
I should have been asking myself.
Well, at some point, yeah, At some point along the line, you ask yourself, 'cause this is, this is brilliant.
Would I be married to myself?
Could I?
Yeah.
10:17
Would I want to be married to me?
Would I want to have sex with me?
Would I want to be a friend with me?
I mean, I think there's, there's so much information I can get about myself if I just have some courage to actually look at myself through a cleaner lens.
Right.
10:33
Yeah, I like that.
And am I blaming on my partner the things that are really my responsibility?
Yeah, it's good.
Well, my research in my doctoral program was related to yours and Pam situation a little bit.
10:52
And knowing what I know, I am guessing she was experiencing some pretty significant betrayal trauma.
Did you know enough at that point to find her the resources she needed?
And how did she deal with this?
11:07
So I got involved with therapy on a weekly level that lasted for two years.
Shortly into it she joined me on a couple level, but that's as far as it went.
She is one that's I don't know if I've ever heard her actually say the words.
11:25
I was betrayed.
She is one that is a pull yourself up by the bootstraps keep working.
I mean, it's it right or wrong?
You know, this is no, there's no high ground or right way here.
I mean, you guys know this.
11:41
This is just kind of she is a grit.
We'll figure it out, you know, And so it kind of what was interesting if you look at the arc of our story, looking back at it, she was very quick in the midst of our work of restoring our life better.
11:58
She was real quick too.
OK, what's my part in this equation?
Not the fact that I cheated, but we Co created a dynamic where we were just coexisting.
We we had parallel spousalhood, if you will, that we weren't actually intertwined a lot.
12:15
Corey, it's highly unusual.
I don't.
Know, I don't know about this man.
Your wife had to deal with your affair and she said what did I have to do with this?
Isn't that a little?
She didn't say it that way.
She just asked she she just started asking some good questions about what is my part in our relationship dynamic.
12:35
OK, right, because it's that's the whole thing.
I I mean, when I work with couples with infidelity, that's one of the things that people need to look at the Co creation of a system as a foundation for why people for when people make choices that because it's still based on.
12:50
Choice.
But my spouse cheated on me.
It's their fault, not my fault.
I have nothing to do with this, right?
For the act in and of itself, I'll agree with you.
The dynamic that's at play, I won't agree with you.
13:08
OK, so then that's the point I'm trying to make is that it's, it's OK if you are the betrayed person to think not maybe not right away, right?
Because you're dealing with trauma and trauma, you cannot think very well.
13:24
Some point you pull through that trauma.
We we've talked about that in different episodes and then come to a point where you start thinking about, I mean, that's a very emotionally intelligent decision that she made.
Like, not necessarily.
13:41
How did I 'cause?
This, well, it could have been emotional intelligence or it could have been her way of doing things, is just sweep it under the rug and keep moving.
I'm resilient.
I'm putting my head down, I'm moving forward.
Well, but she asked herself.
She gained insight.
That's more than sweeping it out of the rug, which a lot of people do.
13:56
Right.
And, and to be clear, none of this was articulated in the moment of or even shortly thereafter.
This is our revisionist history looking back.
Oh yeah, if we add labels.
To it, of course.
That, you know, we can kind of see it because if you look at the of our story, I really got launched on a much better path, a much more authentic, congruent, engaged in my own life, integrated man path.
14:22
Fast forward about 12 years, pornography has been part of my history from way, way back, but even well before her.
And it came, it came, it came to the surface 12 years into our marriage, which then launched her on a path of having to do the work I had been doing, of really starting to look at herself of, OK, wait a second, what's going on with me?
14:46
Because her faith, her values, her identity in some ways was largely through me.
And she's like, I can't keep, I can't have that.
That's not sustainable.
I got, I got to be my own person here.
And so if you look back at it, we both have had these moments of in some instances really spurring another on when I spur myself on better.
15:07
I think it's good to stop and, and just, or pause here and say just hearing your story, because we all have a story.
We have a story.
It's not the same story as yours.
I think that we need to be clear with our audience about the humanness of ourselves, the humanness, the human side, the physiologic side, the biologic side of reacting, hearing things that are traumatic and that automatic reaction, which a lot of times we go through that we don't ever looking back mean.
15:45
And you know, it goes through several different processes in the brain, right?
And so it's always going to be a revisionist history when we look back.
But that's OK, because that's this just.
It's making meaning.
16:00
It's just being human.
Difficult traumatic experiences in life and if we can make meaning of them then we can have a much deeper relationship.
The problem though, is you're not going to make meaning in the moment of.
Trauma, that's certain.
Not, not usually.
16:16
That's not happening all.
You're going to do is going to be able to react using that that Basic Instinct reaction.
And as we teach her on marriage IQ, we try to shorten that gap between that reaction and that insight.
16:35
And the shorter we can get it, the faster we can get it.
We probably will not ever not be able to react to things.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think some people think it's possible.
I think it's not, especially if it violates a very, very deep value to us, but learning to just shorten that gap, but.
16:55
When you say shorten, that for some people might be a year, 2 years, it might for some people be a decade, depending on the story that they're telling themselves, the meaning they're making from it, the questions they're asking themselves, the resources they're able to tap into people's desires, whatever it is, whether it's sexual infidelity or something else.
17:18
Would you add anything to that?
No, I think that's accurate.
We use the terminology of my definition of a great marriage is 2 people that recover well because we're all going to get hit and lose our functioning in some manner, shape or form.
17:34
How can I get better at recovering and face what I need to face better?
And yes, there's a variables is how long it takes, but it is something I think as long as we're striving to constantly be more upfront and engaged with what my role in things are and handle my side of the equation better, I put more pressure.
17:56
Yeah.
So that's some real insight here that we're learning in real time, Real story, both of you learning that together.
Hey, where's what's my part?
Because what we taught, we teach here, we preach every week, is that the scintillating marriage starts with changing myself.
18:18
And I think the more that we get used to this idea, this thought, despite the trauma that we might have.
And I'm not talking about abuse, I'm not talking about physically being beaten.
And we try to distinguish that.
But most people, as far as I know and the research I look at, are not being beaten by far.
18:39
Most people are splitting up because they have a lack of commitment and they're just not committed anymore.
What's interesting in that is I hear that concept as there's two commitments going on each side of the equation, and it's not the two individuals, it's the commitment I make of myself to my relationship.
18:58
And then it's the commitment I make to Pam.
And both of those are integrity and character based.
And so sometimes if I don't like Pam very much, I still have a commitment I've made to the marriage, to the relationship that I've made to myself of it.
19:14
And that's where I put the covenant with God, right?
That's the identity as a believer in the spiritual world, right, That I'm making this commitment as a covenant.
And so I that's got to carry me through even when I don't necessarily like Pam at the moment, which happens.
19:30
That's good that you're able to verbalize that.
I don't think people dare admit that very often, but I think we've all been there.
No, I think that's true.
It's being very honest.
But what, though, about people who don't have a faith, a God to kind of hang on to, or covenants?
19:46
I still think that most people still believe in a spiritual realm of some sort, a a interconnectedness of nature and us in the role we play with the things around us.
So I think everybody can understand it because if you think about the relationships at its best, particularly marriage at its best is otherworldly.
20:08
On what we experience, how we feel and experience things.
You know, like a bet the best sexual experience is beyond just the two people involved, right?
I'm glad that.
Yeah, I'm glad that there's someone else backing us up on this, Heidi.
You're right, and he didn't even know that that's exactly how we feel.
20:26
Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's why we're so passionate about this, because there is kind of a push that, you know, you don't need to be married.
Why get married?
You know, there's a 50% chance of divorce.
That's just, that's straight up and, and a lot of misery.
20:41
And, but there's also this strange, as you kind of alluded to, you can't put your finger on it.
We can't look at it under a microscope.
It's this greater meaning.
It's more than both of us put together, much, much bigger that gives life that spark, that meaning.
21:04
And we can't do that as a single person.
Some people say, Oh my gosh, no, that's true.
It is true.
In fact, we have data to support this.
We do a lot of research on this on this podcast and people do better when they are in and not just a relationship because they've done studies on people who are not married but in a long term relationship and they do not have the same benefits as those who are married.
21:36
There's something about that commitment, that level of covenant that just brings a little more.
I'm going to put it as it brings more intensity because of the commitment, because we carry it with high regard.
So it requires more of us, but it's not necessarily a beat down requiring, although there are seasons where that is true, but but it requires more of us.
21:57
And that's the thing I love about the Crucible model, which is Snarsh's work, that it creates better people.
We've talked about his model in the past.
I've studied it for maybe the last five years or so.
I haven't been to any of the conferences or workshops.
It sounds like your level of of knowledge of his model is far greater.
22:17
Would you mind giving our listeners an overview of your understanding of his model?
Absolutely.
So Doctor David Schnarge, I was introduced to his work in grad school in 2004, 2003, somewhere around then.
So one of my textbooks was Passionate Marriage, which fantastic, We have a tastic book.
22:37
Right behind us, yeah.
So he took Murray Bowen's work, which is the Family Systems and his the high level idea.
I'm assuming your audience has maybe heard some of these already since you guys are researchers and academics as well.
He'd kind of proposed the idea that the level of your differentiation is never more than the family in which you were raised.
22:58
And so whatever level your family was raised at, you know, you lived in, that's where you are when you leave.
You can grow it and usually this through intentional work or struggle.
It is how is how we do that.
And so David Schnarz came and took it and mechanized it in some ways by making it a therapeutic approach within the marriage.
23:18
The visual I use all the time is in spouse, in spousal hood couplehood.
We're not in the same boat together.
We're in kayaks alongside each other.
And what often happens is I reach over to steer my wife's kayak in the name of love.
23:35
And that's not love.
All I can do is keep paddling and see if she'll stay alongside me or I'll adjust to where she's going and stay alongside her.
And then it's all conscious choice.
And so he loves the continuum of separateness and togetherness.
23:54
That's where we all reside.
And so the goal is, how do I hold on to myself without losing the relationship?
But how do I hold on to a relationship without losing myself?
That's the Crucible we're all in.
Hard.
But isn't it better to just be in one boat?
Can't you guide it easier?
24:14
There's more unification.
It initially feels better, but it doesn't last because eventually whoever is not steering gets tired or the one that's steering gets tired doesn't want to paddle or I don't want to go that way.
24:30
That looks dangerous.
No, we're going that way.
And then you start freaking each other out and then you one of you just going to jump overboard or tump the whole thing over.
Well, the point I'm making here is that it's nice to think that we're think the same, right?
We have the same minds, the same brains.
24:46
But shockingly, yeah, we don't.
And it's so strange.
After 29 years, I think you know who I am.
But we are, we are very different people.
Yeah.
And for the people who think that we need to be enmeshed and just one in everything, they're in for a big shocking surprise at some.
25:09
Point and that's at play that's at play in marriage all the time and various levels.
And so some of the goals just becomes how do I get better at recognizing my fusion?
Because Pam and I will have conversations about something and one of us are are we fused on this and the other's like, yeah, probably I think we may be I'm I take too much stock on how you feel about it as it pertains to my feeling.
25:31
That's a little bit of fusion.
And so the more I can just be aware of it, the more I can have the freedom to actually bring the best of me, adjust, bring up a different thought, even if it's divergent to what the normal might have been, as we would have been as a couple.
And that's the pressure we all have and everybody, what's the, I use this phrase with couples a lot.
25:52
We all, we can fall victim to this idea of I love you, but don't tell me what to do.
And if we're in the same boat, you're telling me what to do at some point in my life or on our journey?
And a lot of couples are in that boat because one of the partners doesn't want to make the decisions.
26:09
Yeah.
And they think that it's better if they're one, like we're supposed to be one, right?
And so they think, yeah, that's one of everything.
And I think this especially afflicts younger couples who are, you know, newly married because they don't really know.
26:24
They don't have this experience.
And so they think they're supposed to be the same.
And as you call fused, right fusion, we call in meshed.
It's kind of the same, same kind of a thing.
Yeah, if our listeners noticed that we recently changed our cover art for our podcast a couple of weeks ago, the new cover art that we have is very symbolic of that, that we're each standing separately and then.
26:50
We come together.
We come together.
On a lamppost in Paris.
It's fun.
It's awesome.
We had some fun times there, yeah.
And it's very, very important, and I think it is a schnarge that calls that having a reflected sense of self when we're fused.
27:10
Yeah, it's reflected sense of self.
Then it can go even deeper into the world of borrowed functioning, which is where I take too much of an identity and I borrow it from you to prop myself up.
And then if it goes badly, I have you to blame, right?
And so that's just the sophistication in which we all play marriage, because I'll own myself in this too.
27:30
I still play this way when I'm not operating well, particularly.
I think we get many, many circumstances through marriage to practice this, to look at it and to wonder what are some other areas that you've seen couples play play this game, how it's dangerous to the marriage.
27:50
What comes to my mind here, Heidi, is I love the idea that my spouse is a really clear mirror for me.
And when my spouse takes a break from challenging me to grow up, my kids step in and challenge me because they will be similar to me.
28:07
And some of the things that get under my skin is too much similarity.
It's like, no, please don't.
Please don't react that way.
You know, please, please don't carry that tonality.
Please don't, you know, all that kind of stuff.
And it's like, wait, but I've taught you that.
That's about me.
And so we can fall victim to that whole do as I say, not as I do, you know, bull that's out there.
28:29
It's like, no, if I want to do something and change it, I need to be better and how I interact.
And so I think too many couples, we get caught up in this dilemma of there's tension here and there's something going wrong rather than there's tension.
28:47
Yeah, that's called couplehood.
And oftentimes, most couples that I see, I can sometimes ask a question that's pointed at the very beginning of do you think the source of your problems are because you're too far apart or too close together?
And most people will respond with we're too far apart, we can't be connected at all.
29:06
I'm like, no, you're too close together.
You're both smothering each other and you're trying to avoid being smothered.
You can't see your own way.
Right and or they can't be their own person.
It's threatening if they actually voice their own opinion or seek their own desire or share their own interest with with you because it scares you.
29:25
And so it becomes this element of wait, this is the container where this is supposed to happen.
And it sure it's going to scare you.
It's going to be uncomfortable.
Well, everybody, this is the end of part one of our wonderful conversation with Doctor Corey Allen from Sexy Marriage Radio.
29:42
We hope that you'll join us for Part 2 that's coming out this Friday, where we're going to dive in a little bit more to some of the things that we've talked about sexual relationships with couples.
Yeah.
Try to get just a little different perspective on things and we'll see you on Friday on another exciting episode of Marriage IQ.
