Episode 121 : Grief Almost Broke Us
When Grief Enters Your Marriage: Navigating Loss Together
When Grief Enters a Marriage
Grief has a way of arriving without warning. One moment life feels normal, and the next moment everything changes. A loss, a diagnosis, a goodbye you weren’t ready for. Suddenly the ground beneath your life and your marriage - feels different.
Many couples don’t realize how deeply grief can affect their relationship until they’re already in the middle of it.
And when it happens, it can feel confusing, overwhelming, and incredibly lonely.
Grief Rarely Comes Alone
When people think about grief, they often imagine sadness. But real grief is much bigger than that.
It can feel like a wave that crashes into every part of your life at once. Or sometimes like a tsunami that brings everything with it - past pain, old memories, unresolved trauma, and emotions you didn’t even realize were still there.
Grief can open the heart in a way that feels raw and exposed.
One moment you might feel numb. Another moment you might cry unexpectedly in a grocery store parking lot. Some days feel manageable, and others feel heavy without warning.
And in the middle of all of it, life continues.
Work still happens. Kids still need attention. Relationships still need care.
That’s where grief can quietly begin to affect a marriage.
Why Grief Changes the Way Couples Relate
Grief is deeply personal. No two people experience it the same way.
One partner may want to talk constantly about the loss. The other may withdraw into silence. One may cry openly, while the other tries to stay strong.
Neither response is wrong. But those differences can create distance if couples don’t understand what’s happening.
In many relationships, grief shows up as:
Increased irritability
Emotional distance
Shorter patience with each other
Less physical or emotional intimacy
Misunderstandings about support
Sometimes the grieving partner feels unsupported, even when the other partner is trying their best. And the supporting partner may feel helpless, unsure what to say or do.
Without realizing it, both people can begin to feel alone.
The Many Faces of Grief
Grief doesn’t just show up emotionally. It affects the body, the mind, and daily behavior.
People experiencing grief often report symptoms like:
Brain fog or forgetfulness
Anxiety or fear
Sudges of anger or frustration
Insomnia or exhaustion
Physical aches or stomach issues
Heart palpitations or restlessness
Feeling isolated or disconnected
Some days you may want to be around people. Other days you want to hide from the world.
Even activities you once loved can suddenly feel meaningless.
This unpredictability can be confusing for both partners, especially when neither of you has experienced deep grief before.
The Five Stages of Grief
Psychiatrist Elisabeth Kübler-Ross famously described five common stages of grief. Not everyone experiences them in order, but they can help explain the emotional journey.
1. Denial
At first, the mind struggles to accept what has happened. You might think, “I’ll be okay. This isn’t affecting me that much.”
But grief often shows up later in unexpected ways.
2. Anger
Anger can appear toward many targets — yourself, other people, family members, or even the person who died.
This stage can surprise people because the anger may feel intense or out of character.
3. Bargaining
During this stage people often find themselves making internal deals. Thoughts like, “If I could just change this…” or “If things were different…” are common.
4. Depression
Eventually the reality of the loss sinks in. This stage can bring deep sadness, exhaustion, and hopelessness.
5. Acceptance
Acceptance doesn’t mean the pain disappears. It means recognizing that life has changed — and beginning to move forward with that reality.
Some people reach acceptance in months. For others, it takes years.ble, attentive, and romantic - you respond differently.
And they often rise to that vision.
How Long Does Grief Last?
One of the most common questions people ask is:
“How long should grief last?”
The truth is, there isn’t a simple answer.
Research suggests that the most intense period of grief often lasts between three and six months. After about a year, many people begin integrating the loss into their lives.
But every situation is different.
For example:
The death of a parent may take months or years to process.
Divorce or job loss can trigger grief that lasts one to two years.
The death of a child is often one of the most prolonged and intense forms of grief.
What matters most is recognizing that grief is not a race.
It’s a process.
Why Loss Feels So Personal
Some psychologists suggest that grief isn’t only about losing a person. It’s also about losing the emotions and identity connected to them.
When someone important disappears from our lives, the feelings they created for us - love, safety, encouragement, belonging - disappear too.
That absence can feel like a hole in our identity.
For example, if you spoke to a parent every day for years, their absence creates a daily gap that can feel enormous.
You’re not only grieving them. You’re grieving the experience of being loved by them in that specific way.
When Grief Impacts Intimacy
Grief can also affect physical and emotional closeness between partners.
When the nervous system is in a constant state of stress - something common during grief - the body struggles to relax. And intimacy requires a relaxed, safe state.
As a result, couples may notice:
Less physical affection
Reduced sexual intimacy
Difficulty communicating feelings
Emotional withdrawal
Often this isn’t intentional. It’s simply the body and mind trying to cope.
Understanding this can help couples show each other more patience.
The Risk of Getting Stuck in Grief
For some people, grief can become part of their identity.
They may unconsciously feel that letting go of the pain means letting go of the person they loved.
Others fear that moving forward might feel like betrayal.
But healing doesn’t mean forgetting. It means learning how to carry the love forward without staying trapped in the suffering.
Recognizing when grief has become a permanent emotional state is an important step toward healing.
Moving Forward Together
One of the most powerful ways couples move through grief is by turning toward each other, not away.
That may include:
Talking openly about the loss
Seeking therapy or support groups
Leaning on community or family
Creating new shared experiences
Sometimes healing also involves building new meaning in life.
Trying new activities. Making new memories. Finding moments of joy again.
These small steps help rebuild identity and connection.
Grief Never Fully Disappears
Grief doesn’t vanish completely. Even years later, certain memories, songs, or moments can bring it rushing back.
But over time, the intensity softens.
The pain becomes more manageable. The memories become warmer. And life begins to expand again around the loss.
In many cases, grief can even deepen compassion. People who have walked through loss often become more understanding, more present, and more appreciative of life’s fragile beauty.
A Simple Question to Reflect On
If you’re navigating grief or supporting someone who is, it can help to pause and ask yourself a few questions:
What losses have shaped my life recently?
How might those losses be affecting my relationship?
What stage of grief might I be in right now?
How can my partner and I support each other better?
Grief reminds us that love mattered.
And while loss changes us, it can also open the door to deeper empathy, stronger relationships, and a more meaningful life.
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0:00
How Grief Unexpectedly Impacts Even Strong Marriages
We have experientially realized recently that grief can definitely impact your marriage.
0:07
Speaker 2
We don't just sit there and go, how am I going to learn about whatever, It's OK.
You go through this trauma and then you Start learning real fast.
0:16
Speaker 1
I went to Trader Joe's, bought a bag or two of potato chips and sat in the car and ate them and cried.
0:23
Speaker 2
It's almost like a tsunami, right?
Brings in everything with it.
0:26
Speaker 1
All of the past things that just open up your heart and leave it laying open and vulnerable.
0:36
Speaker 2
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast helping you become an intelligent spouse.
0:42
Speaker 1
I'm Heidi Hastings.
0:43
Speaker 2
And I'm Scott Hastings.
0:45
Speaker 1
We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to change the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun.
1:06
Speaker 2
We have a question.
When is it long enough to get over the grieving process?
How long should it take?
What do you think?
1:19
Speaker 1
We certainly are not experts in grief, we are experts in marriage, but this is something that we've bumped up against a lot over the last year and we are looking to you to help us navigate our journey with grief.
There is one thing that we have experientially realized recently, and that is that grief can definitely impact your marriage.
1:45
Whether you're experiencing grief or you know, somebody who is experiencing grief, what we're going to talk about today might be helpful.
We're right smack in the middle of it trying to figure it out and well.
1:59
Speaker 2
Yeah, let's be honest, even the experts, I mean, they live their own lives too.
2:04
Speaker 1
But to answer your question, I think grief most likely is pretty unique for every single person that experiences it.
But we want to know if I'm normal.
Both of my parents passed away last summer and it's been really difficult not only for me but for our marriage too.
2:28
And this is not something that either of us expected.
And so hopefully, if there's something that resonates with you or if you have advice or if you have personal experiences you can share, put them in the comments because we really, really want to learn from you.
2:45
Speaker 2
You have a lot of experiences out there and we'd love for you to share them with us.
2:50
Navigating Sudden Loss and Its Early Marital Strain
So to share our story just a little bit, it's been about a year ago now since 1 evening.
My sister since got some photographs of some sores that were in my mom's legs and my mom had been taking care of my dad as the sole caregiver for over 5 years.
3:09
My dad had advanced Alzheimer's and she was caring for him in their home.
My sister was concerned with these sores on her legs, sent them to Scott.
Scott looked at them and said she's dying of malnutrition.
3:25
That was a total shock to me.
A complete shock because my mom cognitively was very astute up until really the very, very end, and she eats very healthy.
3:42
She had been more tired lately, but that was a complete shock because we thought she would outlive my dad, who had Alzheimer's by probably several years, if not at least a couple.
And I think thinking back now, that's probably where my grief started, just because it was unexpected.
4:03
And from there it was pretty speedy.
Less than four months later, Hospice told us that she had two weeks to live the day before my daughter's wedding, which was really, really hard to hold grief and celebration at the same time.
4:25
Speaker 2
Is very complex.
4:27
Speaker 1
Yeah.
And then other things associated with that were an interaction at the wedding with my ex-husband kind of and opened up more trauma all at the same time.
4:42
And I think my mom fought it really hard and she lasted about six weeks, not just two.
She was stubborn.
She said.
They're telling me I'm going to die, I'll show them.
She was maybe 60 lbs when she passed away and she was a fighter to the very end.
5:01
Tough as nails.
5:02
Speaker 2
If you could survive without eating, she would live forever.
5:07
Speaker 1
Yep.
But she passed away.
Then Scott and I left for Africa on a humanitarian trip.
And while we were gone, my dad passed away.
And the day we got back, they held the viewing and the next day, the funeral, double funeral for the two of them.
5:27
And I have to admit, when I learned that my mom had passed away, I didn't cry.
I felt no emotion.
I don't know if it was shock or if it was numbness.
I would say probably numbness might be part of shock.
5:42
And then two weeks later, when my dad passed away, the floodgates opened.
Scott wasn't with me that day.
He hadn't made it to Africa yet.
And everything just came out and wouldn't stop for hours.
5:57
Scott was so supportive during the funeral and everything.
And later told me that you said you looked around at all the other brothers in law and you're like, ah, I've been pretty supportive, right?
And we went on a walk after the next morning and watched the sunrise.
6:14
And it was very, very difficult for me.
What did you think?
6:20
Speaker 2
I didn't know what to think.
6:21
Speaker 1
OK.
6:23
Speaker 2
I was just trying to be there, that's it.
6:26
Speaker 1
The next two or three months following my parents death, I became hyper focused on trying to keep my family together.
And throughout this process I would say some elements of grief were showing up, like being really overreactive to some things, maybe blowing things out of proportion.
6:47
What are some other things that you saw that were kind of?
6:52
Speaker 2
Difficult.
Well, just maybe a little bit more reactive to situations than you normally had been in the past, a little bit shorter fuse on things that normally would not be like a real issue to talk about.
7:10
I mean, grief is complicated and I think it complicates an otherwise really healthy marriage.
7:17
Speaker 1
And if the marriage isn't that healthy in the 1st place, I would guess that's really profound.
Yeah.
There's a quote by CS Lewis that I wanted to share with you that I really love, he says in speaking about the death of his spouse.
7:35
We were promised sufferings.
They were part of the program.
We were even told blessed are they that mourn.
And I accept it.
I've got nothing that I hadn't bargained for.
Of course it is different when things happen to oneself, not to others.
7:57
And in reality, not imagination.
I have been working with a few clients over the years that have pretty profound grief from a number of different perspectives.
And I remember thinking I need to study some more about grief so I can help them.
8:17
I knew some of the aspects of grief and grief treatment, but I didn't know it on an experiential level.
I've got nine siblings and my parents.
You've got seven siblings and your parents.
We've not ever experienced grief other than our grandparents, which was many years ago, right?
8:34
Speaker 2
Well, probably grief on smaller scales but not grandiose levels.
8:38
Speaker 1
At least not grief from bereavement, right?
8:42
Emotional and Physical Responses to Significant Loss
So the last few months have caused both of us, I think, to say, So what is grief anyway?
8:51
Speaker 2
Yeah, we kind of had to cut down to the basics and start asking basic questions about trauma and grief.
8:59
Speaker 1
And it actually took us several months to even figure out what the underlying issue was in the discomfort or the space between us.
So how would you define grief?
9:11
Speaker 2
Well, it's a natural response to any significant loss.
9:16
Speaker 1
I think that's pretty good.
Besides the death of a loved one, I know people who've experienced grief from the death of a pet.
Maybe the end of a marriage or.
9:30
Speaker 2
Job loss.
9:31
Speaker 1
Yeah, job loss, launching children and becoming empty nesters.
Or even just when the first one goes.
9:37
Speaker 2
Betrayal.
9:38
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure.
I've seen a lot of grief associated with that and within my own life too.
9:43
Speaker 2
Health Conditions.
9:44
Speaker 1
Yes, very significant health conditions or just major changes in life where something happens to cause big shift in identity.
9:54
Speaker 2
So it's typically caused by some level of trauma first, and then grief follows.
These losses trigger intense emotional, physical, and behavioral reactions, and these feelings and physical responses that you might not even expect.
10:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, let me share some that I've experienced and then maybe a few that other people might experience also.
This morning I woke up feeling really numb, like I couldn't feel anything at all.
Sometimes fear, anxiety, forgetfulness, just forgetfulness of words or where I'm going, what I'm doing.
10:35
Yeah.
Sometimes just feeling like, am I going crazy?
This huge swings in emotion and this isn't me.
What's going on?
Yeah.
Sometimes insomnia, frustration, anger, exhaustion, a lot of confusion about why I'm feeling the way I am or maybe even some brain fog.
10:59
I have felt pretty lonely and isolated at times.
Other times I really want to be around people where I'm not alone with my thoughts.
Sometimes I'm laughing, sometimes I'm screaming in my dreams, lots of crying for me.
11:19
Sometimes I don't want to work at all and other times I want to escape into the work.
11:28
Speaker 2
Kind of get lost in work.
11:29
Speaker 1
I found it really interesting that there are times that I haven't enjoyed things that I really used to love.
And I'm like, no, I don't want to do the same thing all the time.
I want new.
I want something different.
Besides the emotional kinds of responses to grief, there are somatic responses or physical responses.
11:52
Some really common ones are stomach aches, collapsing to the floor, sobbing when you can't handle the intense emotions.
12:01
Speaker 2
Or oversensitive like to pain stimuli, just general body aches, joint pains, things like that.
12:08
Speaker 1
What else?
Well.
12:09
Speaker 2
Yes, that that is common actually the joint pains, muscle aches and people who are dealing with prolonged grief and trauma.
12:19
Speaker 1
Some people even have heart palpitations, don't they?
12:21
Speaker 2
Yes, right.
They have these hyper sympathetic nervous responses and are not able to regulate.
So yeah, that can lead to palpitations, sweating, tremor, all those things.
12:37
Speaker 1
Grief through betrayal trauma or with a very traumatic death.
But the intensity of some of these emotional and physical responses certainly would increase dramatically with the death of a child or a spouse or somebody that you're really close to and love.
12:57
We really want to make you aware that if there's been something reproducing in your life in recent months or years, this might not be an excuse, but an explanation for why things are happening the way they are, and maybe how to look at it with different lenses.
13:20
When Spouses Experience Grief in Unique Ways
Yeah.
Just I think recognizing that hey, this is showing up in our marriage, in our lives and this might be adversely affecting things.
13:29
Speaker 1
Some types of grief, both husband and wife share in the way that the grief is experienced.
But in our particular experience, Scott works every day as a physician with life and with death, and So what My experience with grief has been really hard for him to wrap his head around.
13:50
Is that fair to say that?
13:53
Speaker 2
Well, it's been different.
It's not how I experience things, but I have not lost either of my parents either.
I have not lost a child.
So I don't really know that I can say anything on this with any authority.
14:10
Your experience is your experience and as your spouse and your supporter, I have to respect whatever experience you're having about it, right?
It's like a lot of other things in life.
And I, I learned by fire, right?
14:28
I think a lot of us do that.
We don't just sit there and go, how am I going to learn about whatever?
It's OK.
You go through this trauma and then you Start learning real fast.
The intelligence spouse, we'll try to learn real fast about how to understand, how to change and then to execute right those changes.
14:51
Speaker 1
And how was that for you?
14:53
Speaker 2
It was really hard.
14:55
Speaker 1
Why?
14:56
Speaker 2
It was not the person I thought you were.
And so I thought, who was this person?
And it was tough because I didn't know what to think.
15:12
I didn't know how to respond.
I started thinking, is this a different person?
15:19
Speaker 1
Did you know it was linked to the grief, or did you think something else was happening?
15:26
Speaker 2
Well, I, I knew that was in the background, but I didn't know how much overtly it was tied to it.
I mean, there are other things you're dealing with too, and I don't know how much of that played into it, but I knew that it was really, really hard for both of us.
15:49
Speaker 1
So when it got really hard from my perspective, and then I'd like to ask your perspective because we're being vulnerable, I felt like Scott wasn't showing up for me.
I felt like he turned away from me instead of turning towards me.
But I didn't first of all have the words to explain how I was feeling or second of all have the words to without overreactivity.
16:13
Talk to him about it that your experience.
16:18
Speaker 2
Well, I felt like I was being very supportive to you, but that was my perception.
You know, I could be wrong on that.
I haven't had anyone to show me Hey this is how you do it.
16:33
Speaker 1
I think all of us that might be.
16:35
Speaker 2
The case, right?
So I can't blame anyone else.
Sometimes you just, you're paddling in the water, you're just simply dog paddling and trying to figure out what's even happening.
And it took a long time to figure things out, which I'm still doing.
16:54
Speaker 1
So about November things shifted for me when I realized I cannot keep my siblings together.
There were some real issues between some of the siblings that I realized Scott had stepped in and tried to control because he was so distraught at helping me.
17:16
I can see why he did, but in my viewpoint, that made it even more complex.
And then seeing his family work in a different way where they were working together, it just snowballed and snowballed for me.
And I think for the most part that shifted my grief from an earlier stage, and we'll talk about stages of grief in just a minute, but to one of anger.
17:44
And I think probably up until pretty recently, and this is where the dreams with the screaming probably come from.
I just felt intense anger at at my parents, at them not setting things up better to allow the siblings to be able to interact better with each other, at some of my siblings, at Scott, at some of my kids.
18:17
Like it was so intense.
And I say this just to say anger is a very normal part of grief.
But I didn't understand what was going on.
18:29
Speaker 2
And it certainly would have helped for you, your family, your parents, if your parents would have been intentional before they died to set things up very clearly.
Yeah, we are.
18:40
Speaker 1
Learning that maybe what we think we have set up for our kids isn't sufficient based upon that experience through this time.
Some of the things that happened for me and that may happen for you or people you know, Certainly a lessening of physical intimacy, touch, hugging, although that was there from time to time.
19:07
Probably not as much as either of us needed it, right?
19:11
Speaker 2
We just didn't know.
19:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, a lessening of sexual intimacy, because the grief is heavy and it doesn't always seem easy to switch from one hat to the other.
19:23
Speaker 2
Well, and sex happens in the parasympathetic state.
That's the relaxed state.
Sympathetic state is not the relaxed state.
So that totally makes sense.
If you are on hyperactive alert all the time, it's not going to happen.
19:39
Speaker 1
Yep.
And just emotional intimacy, being able to talk about things.
I didn't even stand myself some of the things that were going on with my experience.
And so how could I have really explained that to you?
19:55
Those words didn't come easily and I couldn't express what my needs were, but.
All I knew is I wanted you to meet them and you weren't.
20:08
Speaker 2
Even though you couldn't define them.
20:09
Speaker 1
Even though I couldn't define them.
20:12
Speaker 2
I think that happens a lot, my love, Yeah.
20:15
Speaker 1
Even to people who aren't experiencing grief, Right.
Yeah.
I had these unexpected swings and moods, attitudes and desire and little things were sometimes blown out of proportion.
And I think for both of us.
20:30
Grief's Deep Impact on Identity and Past Trauma
Because your way of coping kind of led you down a path of depression right at.
20:37
Speaker 2
It was pretty dark for a while.
I, I felt what depression feels like and it's pretty heavy and it's painful in different ways, but I think it hits a lot of the same areas in the brain that actual pain does.
20:52
And when you feel hopeless, it's, it's not a good feeling to have, you know?
21:00
Speaker 1
One word that I think really describes part of what was in my heart was yearning.
Like I'm yearning for healing.
I'm praying for healing.
21:16
I'm yearning for connection well with you.
21:22
Speaker 2
Could you say also you're yearning to have that relationship back with your parents?
21:27
Speaker 1
Yeah, I talked with my mom most every day for about 8 years, so the times I would call her every day just left this gap and feeling like she loved me unconditionally even though things were really hard sometimes for her.
21:50
With my dad, it was ambiguous loss, ambiguous kind of grieving because his was a slow decline and his body's still there, but can't really talk to him.
He couldn't talk the last several years.
22:08
So yearning to have that in my life.
22:13
Speaker 2
Yeah.
22:14
Speaker 1
That's good.
Yearning for understanding who I am, who is this new person, what is this new chapter in my life, Yearning for relationships with my siblings, which because I tried to stay neutral and things felt isolated instead during this time.
22:37
For those of you that are in tune with some of your own spirituality, I will say there were definitely ebbs and flows for me.
It was really hard to sometimes not be able to feel spiritual promptings or things like I had in the past, but then other times feeling comforted by God.
23:04
One of the most surprising things to me I talked about a little bit was in this vulnerable state of grief.
It was the perfect storm for complex trauma from childhood and from my first marriage to return.
23:24
And so not only is it the grief from losing my parents and some of my siblings that cut me off emotionally, but also memories of things that I really hadn't ever processed, like specifically in my first marriage, some of the betrayal and the difficulties I just kind of swept under a rug and was priding myself on being highly resilient, but hadn't really ever processed the majority of it.
23:54
And so all this came back too.
It's.
23:57
Speaker 2
Almost like a tsunami, right?
Right.
23:59
Speaker 1
That's what it felt.
24:00
Speaker 2
It brings in everything with it, you know?
24:03
Speaker 1
All of the past things that just open up your heart and leave it laying open and vulnerable.
Very interesting part is, OK, so I have this one side that's very, very heavy and negative maybe.
24:23
And then on this other side, which is the paradox, I have these beautiful memories of my parents and the great people they were.
Some of the heaviness is some of their imperfections.
And so holding these two parts of these very human and very wonderful people that had parts of their mortality that were not perfect was very confusing to me.
24:52
Speaker 2
I can see that that would be.
24:54
Speaker 1
But I'm glad it wasn't all negative.
I'm glad I could take those moments and, you know, look at pictures from my past and.
25:03
Speaker 2
Make some meaning, yeah.
So how has grief changed who you are, Heidi?
25:08
Speaker 1
While I'm moving through it and moving through the stages, I think it's made me more compassionate to other people.
I see some people, again, not necessarily in bereavement grief, but in other types of grief, that I've been able to go back and say, I kind of see where you're coming from a little bit better now and let's just sit down and cry.
25:33
Let's talk about how we can move through this and also just slow down and appreciate where we are.
Let it move through us.
25:48
Speaker 2
And sometimes that's really hard to do, isn't it?
Yeah.
25:51
Understanding the Phases and Duration of the Grieving Process
So how does that moving forward look to you?
What does that mean?
Well.
25:57
Speaker 1
I hope to be able to make meaning of it.
I'm not there yet, certainly.
And I again want to ask, tell me how does that look and what things helped you move forward?
And I would say I'll have 5 or 6 good days and then a bad day and then three good days and then a bad day or most of a good day and then a few bad hours.
26:23
But it doesn't ever go at this point more than a week or two before it's popping up in some way.
26:31
Speaker 2
So would you say it's safe to say then, my love, that grief never really goes completely away?
26:39
Speaker 1
Well, in talking with some of my clients who've had grief for many years, I would say it might lessen in intensity, but there are definitely triggers, just like with trauma, that bring it right back.
26:55
Like I would have never thought sitting with your mom and dad in sunny Arizona watching the love between them would hit so hard.
I went to Trader Joe's, bought a bag or two of potato chips and sat in the car and ate them and cried.
27:14
And I've eaten more than my share of bags of potato chips the last little bit.
Which then is frustrating too because I am a healthy eater.
27:22
Speaker 2
We'll talk about Heidi.
I we were talking about grief.
Let's kind of maybe summarize it.
Is there a easy way to to see how grief is experienced?
27:32
Speaker 1
That's a good question.
So there's a researcher named Elizabeth Kubler Ross, and she wrote about 5 different stages of grief, and these have been built upon by some researchers since then.
But the first stage is denial.
27:52
And that can be denial that this is going to impact you.
I think for me, that was probably one of them.
I'm going to be OK.
I know my mom's going to pass away.
I'm going to be OK.
In fact, I think I remember after she did pass, two days later I'm like, I've been healed.
28:09
The grief was there for two days and I'm healed.
Nope that.
28:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, didn't happen.
28:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, there are many different kinds of denial, maybe denying that someone who has a chronic illness is headed in that direction.
28:27
Speaker 2
So denial first one.
28:28
Speaker 1
First step.
Second step is anger, and we've talked quite a bit about that and my experience with that, anger at ourselves, at other people, at the person maybe who passed away or who was responsible for the betrayal or anger at their parents, or it could be any number of things.
28:48
And then bargaining, and that can be bargaining with God to change things.
And I've probably done some amount of that.
If you'll just take this away, I will do this.
The next step that Kubler Ross delineates is depression.
29:07
And I've just started to dip into that a little bit more, I think.
And you did as well.
And it can last a long time or not a long time, but to really realize things are not changing.
29:23
And this is my lot in life.
29:25
Speaker 2
This is how it's going to be, yeah.
29:27
Speaker 1
And then her final step of the five steps of grief is acceptance, where finally you can start moving forward.
When you say there's nothing I can change in me, in my loved one, in my siblings, I can change things here.
29:50
I can't change what happened, but I can start making changes in how I show up with these other relationships.
29:57
Speaker 2
Oh, I think too is acceptance can go two ways.
One is acceptance and hopelessness, OK.
And the other is acceptance and growth.
30:08
Speaker 1
And responsibility.
30:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, so.
30:10
Speaker 1
Forging my own path.
30:12
Speaker 2
Yeah.
So that acceptance can be two different ways and interpreted.
30:16
Speaker 1
I like that.
30:17
Speaker 2
So I appreciate you summing all that up there, Heidi.
There's some some statistics on grief.
I kind of looked up earlier, losing a child, losing a parent, losing a spouse to death or divorce and losing a job.
And those are all big traumas, right?
30:36
And it's interesting in studies, generally speaking, because each one of these, they carry different data points on them, like losing a child is much more traumatic than getting a divorce in these studies.
30:52
Speaker 1
It's the most traumatic, isn't it?
30:54
Speaker 2
It's the highest ones that I looked at anyway.
It takes the longest amount of time to move through.
I actually looked up data on the divorces after you lose a child and it's all over the place.
But some studies show that generally around a 40 to 50% increase in over baseline in divorces and other studies show no change.
31:20
But there is that stress that it depends on how resilient you are in your marriage.
So getting back to that kind of that timeline, right, In most cases, all comers with all this trauma that first three to six months are is going to be that acute traumatic stage, right where it's a constant, constant traumatic sympathetic nervous system stimulation and it's, it's rough.
31:56
And then after that initial three to six months, that next six months or so, you're starting to reintegrate a little bit, but it's still pretty fresh.
But you're trying to move into a new life and about somewhere around 80% of people experiencing grief after 12 months have moved through those initial stages and they're kind of moving on with that acceptance part of grief in their lives.
32:32
There is a subset of people, about 8 to 10%, who have prolonged grief for years and years.
And that's, you know, that that's another another topic in and of itself, but that does happen to people who aren't able to move through that group.
32:54
You know that grieving in productive ways.
32:58
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would say from my study of betrayal, it's definitely more than the stats that you said.
Three to six months, they start making some progress.
By 12 months, they're no.
33:11
Speaker 2
Three to six months, Is that that severe?
33:14
Speaker 1
OK, grief.
OK.
And.
33:17
Speaker 2
Again, it depends on if you have a a death of a child that severe grief is going to be longer.
That's usually 12 to 24 months.
So that's why I say all comers.
They're taking all the grieving and putting it in together into one bucket.
33:33
Speaker 1
OK.
I would say it would be longer than normal for the women that I've talked to unless they can very quickly get resources.
And I would guess it would be the same with having the death of a child.
33:49
We interviewed Jim and Cheryl Hastings more than a year ago now, I think, and they shared their experience with the homicide of their teenage daughter.
And they are rock stars.
They're amazing.
They share such a beautiful story of how they kept turning to each other during that time.
34:10
And one would be really struggling and the other one would kind of take care, and then they'd switch roles back and forth.
But the importance of resources of community in helping heal some of those forms of grief made all the difference for them.
34:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, they're a very inspiring story.
I think it's episode 20.
34:34
Speaker 1
We'll link that episode here.
34:35
Speaker 2
All right, so in getting back to the types of grief too, again, the death of a child, typically that takes two to five years.
According to research, that whole grieving process followed by a death of a spouse is 12 to 24 months.
34:55
Divorce 6 to 24 months.
34:58
Speaker 1
Probably depending on the circumstances of the divorce.
35:01
Speaker 2
Right, the parents dying is around again.
Generally speaking, 6 to 12 months Job loss 3.
35:07
Speaker 1
That means we're halfway there, honey.
35:10
Speaker 2
Job loss, 3 to 9 months, each one is going to take typically for most people a different amount of time.
So and that's moving from that initial shock and anger and disbelief and the followed by that next 6 to 12 months, that shock has worn off and now we're just trying to integrate and we're still feeling depressed.
35:33
We're still feeling the angst until you finally get to that final acceptance part and you're able to move on.
So it can be years.
35:43
Practical Steps to Heal and Rebuild After Loss
There's an article I read today, Stan Goldberg, PhD, he's writing for Psychology Today.
It's called understanding grief.
It's not what you think, he says, that grief creates a hole in our identity.
35:59
It's a loss that creates a hole in our identity.
But more controversially, he says that we're actually not grieving that person so much as the emotions that they created for us and in us.
36:18
So with you and your parents, you had certain emotions of maybe happiness, excitement.
Yeah.
36:29
Speaker 1
Purity.
36:29
Speaker 2
That now you're not able to have and that's he's saying that's what you're actually grieving.
36:35
Speaker 1
That's interesting.
Wow.
36:37
Speaker 2
And he says by trying new and different activities that can kind of mimic or reproduce these emotions that were lost might help us get over that or move through that grief quicker.
36:51
Speaker 1
OK.
36:53
Speaker 2
And, you know, interesting, I don't know, I mean, it, this is a theory.
It sounds interesting.
And you know, sometimes we can get stuck in grief, right?
And we actually become dependent on it because it's provides some level of safety and security.
37:11
I know it sounds strange, but.
37:14
Speaker 1
We may have to think about how that works.
37:16
Speaker 2
We may become compulsive trauma mode survivors, so feeling calm might feel foreign to us or even uncomfortable.
So that chaos that feels familiar.
So this emotional intensity that might help us feel more alive.
37:34
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's not me.
I don't like feeling that level of emotion.
37:39
Speaker 2
So yeah, some people, they actually learn to live in that elevated nervous system, that grief.
And if it's not processed appropriately and timely, it becomes part of their identity.
For example, they start telling themselves I am a griever, I'm a person who grieves, This is who I am.
38:01
And healing from that grief feels like now I'm losing another part of my identity.
They don't want to lose any more of their identity, so they don't want to lose another hole, have another hole.
They tell themselves if I stop breathing, I'm going to lose another part of my identity.
38:17
And on top of that, fascinating.
If I stop grieving, I'm in some way disloyal.
Yeah, to the person I lost.
38:25
Speaker 1
Very much, I can see that there's.
38:28
Speaker 2
You know they're sitting up there.
I.
38:29
Speaker 1
Don't want to be happy?
38:30
Speaker 2
In the afterlife going what, you.
You're already over me.
What?
So yeah, this is something that we do unconsciously.
Subconsciously we can recreate our distress because our bodies don't recognize peace is safe.
38:47
So it's just interesting thoughts there that there's some some studies that I used to kind of support this, one of them being Vanderkolk.
He's the author of The Body Keeps Its Score talked about that.
McEwen, Janoff, Bohlman and Niemeyer, among others, talked about this phenomenon of kind of being stuck in the grief process because it's comfortable and safe.
39:14
Speaker 1
So what do they recommend then for those people that are stuck?
39:19
Speaker 2
I think recognition is really a big chunk of this.
Recognizing it's happening and then being able to move out of that comfortable, safe space of being in trauma or grieving all the time to building a new identity that might feel a little scary.
39:36
A new identity, a new meaning, new safety.
What?
39:40
Speaker 1
Would that look like?
39:41
Speaker 2
Well, I think for me, I think it would look like acknowledgements that things that have been in the past may not be in the future.
And I'm OK with that.
I'm comfortable with that.
The only thing constant in life is change.
39:58
What do you think?
Comment and tell us what you think about the best way to move through the grieving process.
40:05
Speaker 1
I would be really interested to hear your experiences about how did your spouse best support you?
How did you communicate to your spouse what your needs were?
Was a community member helpful?
40:20
Maybe you sought out therapy, which we did recently for kind of helping us process some of this grief.
40:28
Speaker 2
It's OK to be vulnerable and not to feel shame over this because we're all humans.
That's first and foremost.
We're all going to have feelings, even the ones who are the experts.
40:40
Speaker 1
I will say once Scott and I kind of got down to the nitty gritty and realized what the underlying things were that were making us feel more disconnected from each other.
We have in the last few weeks made a very intentional effort to put new things into our relationship.
41:02
And maybe that is part of creating a new identity, putting in things that will help me feel more surprise.
Aw, excitement.
We went roller skating, we went stargazing, we had slumber parties.
What can we replace some of the things that are missing?
41:21
Speaker 2
And not forgetting also to keep doing the things that do bring you closer, even though you've been doing them for a long time.
Don't don't just automatically jettison.
This week we want to invite you to sit with yourself as an individual and ask yourself, what loss and grieving have I experienced?
41:40
Have I moved through it?
And what does that look like moving through grief?
What stage might I be in if I haven't moved through it?
And am I comfortable if I haven't moved through it?
Do I feel safe in my grief state?
41:56
If so, can I think about moving through that?
What loss and grieving has my spouse experienced?
And maybe you can get together if you feel so inclined and feel intimate enough to talk with your spouse about that.
42:12
But at least have that conversation with yourself.
42:15
Speaker 1
Those are really good questions.
I like those a lot.
All right, everybody, thanks for joining us during a pretty vulnerable moment.
And we hope that you'll take this and reach out to somebody that you might see that's in grief and bring them some comfort and security and compassion.
42:34
And until next.
42:35
Speaker 2
Week we'll see you on another exciting episode of Marriage Like You.
