Episode 122 : The Surprising Benefits of Anger in Marriage
Anger Isn’t the Enemy
How Understanding Anger Can Transform Your Marriage
Most of us grow up believing that anger is dangerous.
We’re taught to avoid it, suppress it, or feel ashamed when it shows up.
But what if anger isn’t the real problem?
What if the problem is simply what we do with it?
In relationships — especially marriage — anger can either tear couples apart or become a powerful catalyst for growth, self-respect, and deeper connection. The difference lies in understanding it.
Why We Fear Anger
For many people, anger is associated with conflict, rejection, or emotional rupture. It can feel like the beginning of the end — of peace, safety, or even the relationship itself.
So we try to avoid it.
Some people explode. Others shut down. Many quietly carry resentment for years.
But anger doesn’t disappear just because we ignore it. Instead, it builds pressure beneath the surface until it eventually comes out — often in ways we regret.
The truth is, anger is not a character flaw.
It is a survival emotion.
It shows up when something important feels threatened — respect, safety, fairness, belonging, or emotional connection.
Anger as a Compass
Rather than viewing anger as something to eliminate, it can help to see it as a compass.
Anger points to gaps.
It highlights unmet needs.
It reveals boundaries that need attention.
For example, imagine feeling furious when plans suddenly fall apart. On the surface, it may look like overreaction. But underneath, anger might be signaling fear of disappointing others, anxiety about lost opportunities, or frustration over lack of control.
When couples learn to listen to anger instead of reacting to it, they gain valuable insight into what truly matters.
The Hidden Cycle of Anger in Relationships
In many marriages, anger becomes a game of emotional ping-pong.
One partner gets upset. The other feels uncomfortable and tries to fix it quickly. That response creates more frustration, which triggers more anger. Soon the original issue gets lost, and the argument becomes about how the argument is being handled.
This cycle can escalate rapidly:
Avoid conflict → resentment builds
Anger erupts → partner reacts defensively
New problems pile onto old ones
Couples question the entire relationship
What started as a small disappointment can turn into a major emotional storm.
Breaking this cycle requires emotional awareness — not just of your partner, but of yourself.
Anger Is Often Protecting Something Vulnerable
Anger is rarely the first emotion we feel. It is usually a secondary emotion — a form of emotional armor.
Underneath anger, there may be:
Fear of abandonment
Feelings of insignificance
Shame or insecurity
Loneliness
Exhaustion
Desire for appreciation or support
Understanding this can completely change how couples communicate.
Instead of saying, “Why are you so angry?”
You might begin to ask, “What is this anger protecting?”
That simple shift creates empathy.
Different Ways People Express Anger
Not everyone expresses anger the same way.
Some people show it externally — raising their voice, arguing, or storming out. Others internalize it — withdrawing emotionally, giving the silent treatment, or shutting down intimacy.
Neither style is healthier by default. Both are coping strategies learned over time.
For example, one partner may seek space to regulate emotions, while the other may chase connection out of fear. This creates tension because each person is trying to feel safe in a different way.
Recognizing these patterns can help couples stop blaming each other and start understanding the dynamic.
The Power — and Danger — of Feeling Angry
There is a surprising truth many people don’t like to admit:
Anger can feel good.
It can feel powerful.
It can create a sense of control.
It can make us feel like we are finally standing up for ourselves.
The problem is not the emotional surge. The problem is the destruction that sometimes follows — harsh words, emotional punishment, or long periods of distance.
Healthy anger allows you to keep the sense of empowerment without the regret.
Learning Emotional Literacy
Most of us were taught intellectual skills in school — math, reading, problem-solving. But few were taught emotional literacy.
We were given only a handful of labels: mad, sad, glad.
In reality, emotions are complex physical and psychological experiences. Before anger becomes a thought, it often shows up in the body — faster heartbeat, tight chest, shallow breathing.
By noticing these early signals, couples can pause before reacting.
Simple practices can help:
Naming physical sensations
Taking a short break during conflict
Saying, “I’m upset and need a minute”
Returning later to discuss the issue calmly
These small skills can prevent arguments from spiraling out of control.
Radical Self-Responsibility in Marriage
One of the most transformative steps in managing anger is accepting personal responsibility.
In relationship conflict, it is easy to focus on how the other person is contributing. It is harder — but more powerful — to ask:
How am I contributing to this dynamic?
Sometimes people remain in unhealthy patterns because they feel predictable or emotionally safe. Even dysfunction can become comfortable over time.
Change often brings fear.
Growth can feel destabilizing.
Letting go of old roles — caretaker, fixer, avoider — can feel like losing part of your identity.
But facing anger honestly can lead to profound healing.
Repairing Instead of Punishing
Many couples unintentionally punish each other after conflict. One partner withdraws intimacy. The other becomes defensive. Silence replaces connection.
Real repair happens when both people learn to tolerate discomfort — listening without immediately fixing or judging.
Instead of apologizing for feeling angry, it can be more helpful to apologize for harmful behavior.
“I’m not sorry that I got scared or upset.
I’m sorry for raising my voice.”
This distinction validates emotions while still encouraging accountability.
Transforming Generational Patterns
When couples learn to handle anger differently, they don’t just improve their own relationship. They also change the emotional legacy they pass on to their children.
Modeling healthy emotional expression teaches the next generation that:
Anger is normal
Feelings are safe to express
Conflict can lead to connection
Repair is possible
Over time, this can transform cycles of dysfunction into patterns of resilience.
Moving Toward a Steadier Relationship
The ultimate goal isn’t constant happiness or the absence of conflict. It’s emotional steadiness — the ability to return to balance after being thrown off.
Marriage will always include moments of frustration, disappointment, and anger.
But when couples learn to understand anger as data rather than danger, it becomes a tool for growth.
Anger can highlight what needs attention.
It can push for change.
It can strengthen boundaries and deepen respect.
Handled wisely, anger doesn’t destroy love.
Sometimes, it’s what helps love evolve.
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0:00
Discovering the Surprising Benefits of Anger in Marriage
I was sitting in this certification training and slowly had the walls caving in on me and recognized that I was very much the problem.
OK, you got angry.
Sure.
And what was your anger?
Protecting what was underneath it.
And it felt like I was in the middle of the ocean treading water, drowning in it, choking on it, and mad at him that I gave him my life jacket.
0:22
Number one thing I tell my children is I'm not sorry for being angry.
I am sorry for what I did with it.
0:30
Speaker 2
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast helping you become an intelligent spouse.
0:36
Speaker 3
I'm Heidi Hastings.
0:38
Speaker 2
And I'm Scott Hastings.
0:39
Speaker 3
We are two doctors, 2 researchers, 2 spouses, 2 lovers, and two incredibly different human beings coming together for one purpose, to change the stinky parts of your marriage into scintillating ones using intelligence mixed with a little fun.
1:01
Speaker 2
Hello everyone, welcome back to Marriage IQ.
Heidi, I feel very angry right now.
1:07
Speaker 3
Tell me more.
Right before we hit record, you got some news that apparently really ticked you off.
Tell me about.
1:16
Speaker 2
It well I have a day full of meetings tomorrow that I have to cancel because one of my providers is not showing up to work.
1:25
Speaker 3
Wow, that's a high cost.
1:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, so that is how it goes.
1:31
Speaker 3
You know, we're very fortunate today because we have an anger expert with us who might help us be able to navigate this a little.
1:41
Speaker 2
Bit.
How serendipitous.
1:44
Speaker 3
We have with us today Davina Hen and she is a therapist who was turned coach, but she empowers people to kind of come to the dark side.
She says anger is her favorite emotion.
1:57
Speaker 2
Favorite emotion?
Wait, she's bringing people to the dark side?
What do you mean by this?
2:03
Speaker 3
Well, we usually think of anger as a really dark emotion, but Davina, are you willing to kind of work through this with us today and help us learn some things and also talk about how anger impacts our marriages?
2:16
Speaker 1
Always.
And yes, anger is viewed as a dark thing, mostly because of what we do with it.
But if we can learn how to harness it, how to use the data that it's giving us in order to empower ourselves more and take radical self responsibility over it, it tends to lead us to better outcomes.
2:33
How I Learned to Harness Anger for Personal Growth
Welcome to Marriage IQ.
We couldn't have scheduled this for a better day.
2:38
Speaker 1
Thank you.
2:39
Speaker 3
Davina, what made you have that shift in perspective to see the emotion of anger as a positive thing, as a good thing, as something that can empower us?
2:51
Speaker 1
It was a very long progression, or wasn't always this way.
I grew up avoiding anger.
I grew up avoiding conflict, really just trying to get in the middle of it to try to mend.
Because what I saw was that anger meant disconnection.
Anger meant the end of something.
3:07
It meant rupture and I didn't quite know how to be angry and stay connected at the same time.
So during grad school I was in the relationship that I am now with my now husband.
We were still dating at the time and we struggled with connecting when we were angry.
3:24
I chose anger management in an attempt to fix him because he was more externally expressive and I was much more internally expressive.
But I wouldn't have really ever acknowledged it as anger.
It would have been frustration, disappointment, you know, all of these other things.
3:42
Speaker 3
Down versions of anger.
3:44
Speaker 1
Exactly the more kind of feminine way that we've been conditioned to express anger.
And so I was sitting in this certification training and slowly had the walls caving in on me and recognized that I was very much the problem.
4:00
No wonder this man was punching things and throwing things and just trying to get out.
I was keeping him trapped.
He needed space and I needed him to stay.
And so I put my needs above his and knew that he wouldn't harm me, knew that if I could just get him to calm that then we could reconnect.
4:19
But I didn't quite understand the ways that I was contributing really poorly to that.
And then parenting came through and the challenges that we've experienced as parents and partners slowly started to help me see that when I got angry and I didn't lead with aggression, but I LED with action and empowerment and advocacy, that's where my self respect came in.
4:43
That's where my husband's respect for me came in.
And I started to see that it could really be this catalyst for really beautiful changes in our lives.
And that's when it very slowly, incrementally changed the entire way that I view anger.
4:58
Speaker 2
So you're not, you're not suggesting that we do away with anger, right?
It still needs to be present right at times.
5:05
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
I'm not an advocate for anger elimination.
I know that that's a lot of the anger management side.
I know that that's a lot of therapeutic approaches that people try to take.
I more so want us to harness anger, listen to it, understand the language that it's speaking in so that we can utilize it to our benefit.
5:23
It's our survival emotion.
This is something that demands advocacy, and because we haven't really learned or been taught what to do with it, instead it tends to be quite destructive.
So I want everything to be around keeping anger, just ditching the aggression that we tend to follow it up with.
5:42
Using Anger to Identify Gaps in Your Relationship
You're using a lot of adjectives along with the emotion of anger that I would have never put together before.
Understanding Harnessing.
Wow.
5:52
Speaker 2
Fascinating.
Well, learning a new language, almost right about how to express yourself when you're feeling angry.
Using anger I guess as a tool or as a a springboard maybe, right?
6:04
Speaker 1
I refer to it as our compass.
6:06
Speaker 2
Our compass.
6:06
Speaker 3
Explain more about that.
6:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
So let's take Scott, your example from earlier, right?
If we were to take this into more advocacy, more things that can happen in real time, if it means certain backups that we have whenever a provider isn't available, it then tells us where we have gap.
6:24
The anger that comes from disappointment of disappointing our patients, our clients, disappointing our future clients based on referrals, disappointing the business when it comes to revenue.
There are all of these things that your anger is now showing you where gaps are.
6:41
You're not angry just because this happened.
You're angry that a circumstance presented something that you didn't have a backup for.
And that's how we know where we can maybe place different kinds of emphasis on and or if there isn't anything to do, then how I can radically accept that, How I can move through that without it then becoming this bleed in my day?
7:01
Speaker 2
I think a lot of times anger for us is directed towards other people, right?
I guess in this context, in this podcast, it'd be a spouse.
How do we then navigate this anger?
Because you have two people now, right?
7:17
It's not just you trying to, you know, look at yourself and go, huh, you know, I was angry.
What, what are my blind spots?
Now you have someone else who, if they pick up on that anger, that reaction, you know, they're going to most likely react to that.
7:33
And it just kind of complicates things.
7:36
Speaker 3
Have a vicious cycle.
7:38
Speaker 1
Yeah, we tend to kind of volley it back and forth, right?
Like if my husband is upset with me and I don't know how to tolerate it, if I don't know how to let his anger just be his anger and I go into a quick fix or I go into solution mode and he's not quite ready for it.
7:55
And then it creates that frustration in me that then presents as anger at him for not wanting a solution.
And then the new problem is now how we handled it instead of what his original upset was.
So we really do what that's kind of what we do is each one of these kind of missteps.
8:13
They piggyback, we hop on the back of the original complaint, and then we lose sight.
We go down every tree branch on the way.
When really originally, if I can work through my discomfort around anger, if I can work on learning where my power really lies, what's my job, what's his job, what's our collective job, then I can sit with the discomfort.
8:36
I can tolerate his upset long enough that it can make its way through his body, that he can then come up with a solution or let me know what he's looking for.
But that's usually what we see, right?
We try to avoid conflict in order to maintain this illusion of peace until one of us feels like we can't hold it anymore.
8:56
And then it becomes a, well, what about, oh, and you don't do this?
And what about when you did this the other day and I didn't say anything?
And then it feels like this injustice that I stayed quiet and you didn't.
And then it it of course we go down this rabbit hole until we're questioning the entire relationship over somebody getting cut off in traffic or choosing the poor parking space.
9:18
It becomes nothing bigger instead of what it could just be.
9:24
Speaker 3
Or their provider less than 24 hours notice that she's not going to make it in tomorrow.
9:28
Speaker 1
Yeah.
9:29
Speaker 2
I mean, the vast majority of time I just need space and time and I moved through it.
It may not be as intentional as you're presenting it, but I want it to be more intentional.
9:41
The Biological and Psychological Roots of Anger
I want to learn from you today.
I did find though, like space does help, it helps me in a reset my limbic system a little bit.
I want to go back to like you, you kind of went over your history pretty quickly and I want to rehash you had this relationship with the boyfriend now your husband and you were having all these issues.
10:01
You went to a, you said a class right?
Or a some kind of a?
10:05
Speaker 3
Was this part of your master's degree?
10:07
Speaker 1
So it was actually postmaster's.
I got certified in anger management and so it was that training that I was.
10:12
Speaker 2
Doing and so you recognized in the middle of this course that it was really you're doing.
10:22
Speaker 1
It was that I contributed, right?
When we see people who are more expressive with their anger, who raise their voice, who destroy things, who say things that they regret and 'cause that damage, it's so easy for them to stay in the spotlight and for me to sit back and say, well, I'm cool, you're the problem, right?
10:43
It's even.
That's why I use the language that I went in to try to fix my husband.
I went in as the savior, as we tend to do within the mental health field.
I thought that I could be this person who could save him, protect him, without recognizing how I contributed.
10:58
And it became this acknowledgement that if our dynamic is problematic, if our relationship has these really deep seated problems, then I'm also contributing, even if I think that I'm helping.
11:10
Speaker 3
So can you explain a little bit more what some of the specific things are that were aha moments for you, what we call insight of, oh, I didn't realize this is part of the problem and I didn't realize this is part of the problem.
11:25
Speaker 1
Yeah, So I chose anger management, knowing that that's just where people go when they're angry and aggressive, not having really any idea what it was.
That's where this insight came from, was, oh, it's my attachment style that contributes here.
11:40
It's trauma.
It's the neurochemistry of the amygdala with the hippocampus, with the prefrontal cortex.
Understanding that there is more of a biological component to this than just.
I just can't calm down.
So my degree was in forensic and counseling psychology, and I was primarily interested in prison work.
11:59
And then I was interning in this medium security prison for all adult male sex offenders.
And I was running these groups on social skills, coping skills.
And there were these men, these lifers, these civil committers who weren't ever going to see the outside again, weren't ever going to enter into the community.
12:17
And I was teaching them social skills, coping skills that most children we would hope would be taught.
And I had this realization in there that I wondered how many of them would have still ended up there had we been taught these skills.
Skills that I hadn't been taught either, about what to do when I'm sad, what to do when I'm angry, what to do when I'm lonely and when I'm struggling.
12:40
And so it was very quick that I got disenchanted with the more traditional therapeutic model of diagnosis and managing of symptoms.
And I knew I wanted to be more actionable.
But in all transparency, I graduated with my masters and was like, oh, God, like, I don't know what I'm going to do.
12:56
I don't want to do therapy anymore.
I felt like I wasted my two years getting this degree if I'm not going to pursue licensure, if I'm not going to go into the more traditional therapeutic route.
And I kind of took from my environment, which was my husband.
13:12
And he wasn't open to doing the work because it hadn't quote, UN quote worked for him before.
And so I went in to certification for anger management, thinking there's still some forensic aspect of it.
They're still going to be court ordered and these types of things that still intrigue me so deeply.
13:29
And I could fix him in the process.
And it was through that that I learned what anger management actually is and the tenants of it that most none of us are taught.
It's this criminalized clinical treatment as opposed to something that should be part of our regular vocabulary in the same way that that we need an emotional one.
13:52
Speaker 3
Taught in elementary school, you said.
13:55
Speaker 1
Yes, at any point in our homes, at any point, right.
It's we place so much emphasis on intellectual literacy and none on emotional literacy.
14:05
Modeling Healthy Anger Responses for Your Children
Wow, we do talk about emotions here a lot and how to navigate those, especially when they're overwhelmingly flooding.
But I would love to hear what do you recommend to increase our emotional literacy?
14:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's our vocabulary, right?
It's our vocabulary that we assign to the physical sensations that we experience.
So now as a mother of two boys, they're six and eight, I'm raising men, and my husband and I are working very hard to ensure that they don't suffer and struggle in the same ways that he did.
14:42
So we start by acknowledging what's happening in their bodies, letting them become more aware of their heart rate, their blood pressure, their breathing patterns, the things that upset them, and helping them tie language to that that then ties meaning to it.
15:00
Speaker 3
So you're saying like I feel angry or I feel frustrated or is there other language that you tie to that?
15:07
Speaker 2
Maybe even just going with I feel that my heart rate's getting faster, I feel my breathing is faster, or whatever it is.
15:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, and it's that for the most part, we're taught mad, sad, glad.
Those are really the words that we tend to assign to the emotions that we feel, and we forget that there is a psychosomatic experience.
There is a physiological response first before we attach meaning to it.
15:33
So yes, to that point, we do talk a lot about that.
I talk to my children like anger being armor because it is a secondary emotion.
It's a protective survival emotion that comes after something more vulnerable.
So we talk about armor.
OK, you got angry.
15:49
Sure.
And what was your anger protecting?
What was the soft and squishy inside?
What was underneath it?
And so it's one of these things that my elder son is very annoyed by.
And he rolls his eyes and was like, you always say that.
But it is.
16:04
And I hope that it's those things that I used to say to my mom about you always say that.
And I hope that these are the things that they remember into their adulthood that they tell their kids how annoying I was about it.
But it is that that I want them to understand the message it's giving us.
16:20
Anger is the result.
We need to understand what's beneath it so that when they get angry, they have the capability of acknowledging.
My heart's pumping.
I need to calm my heart before I can really think everything's swirling.
Now isn't a good time.
16:36
How can I buy myself a few minutes to say I'm really angry?
I need a minute and remove ourselves instead of just storming out and then having me or their future partners chasing them down roads like I did with my husband, chased him down many a stairwell, many a hallway.
16:51
And it becomes this, that they can start advocating for themselves in real time before they know what's happening.
We tend to think that we react and then we process in silence and quiet and then we come back around.
What I'm advocating for is acknowledge it a little bit faster, be able to say I need a minute and then go process it, attach meaning to it and come back with a solution.
17:17
Not just this whole mess that I now have to clean up and then hope that I can get to the original upset.
17:24
Speaker 3
So that's easier through a text, right, Because we don't have to respond to a text immediately.
We can do some of that work to process things.
But I think especially for those who have any kind of attachment issues, what you're saying is I need a minute, I'm going to be back.
17:41
This kind of goes along with John Gottman stuff.
I need to take a few minutes by myself.
I will be back and then we can talk about it.
Is that what you're saying?
17:52
Speaker 1
Yeah, and I'm really working to model it as well.
I still raise my voice.
I still say the wrong thing.
I still live with regret.
It's more so about acknowledging the path of least regret and attempting to take that.
So they'll see myself and my husband say I'm just too upset right now.
18:09
I need a minute and I'm going to be right back.
I'm going to go.
And then sometimes I'll do it in real time.
They'll watch me quite literally breathe, shake things out.
I'll hum, I'll do things that help stimulate that part of my body so that I can show myself I'm safe, the anger can go away, I can release that energy, and I can get to the root of what it is.
18:30
And a lot of this is through modeling.
A lot of this is helping them see that anger is a really good, beautiful, powerful emotion and we don't have to lead with aggression to get those needs met.
18:42
Unexpected Anger During My Husband's Sobriety Journey
I love that idea of the compass.
It shows us where we're lacking, where our gaps are, where maybe we need to make some changes.
18:52
Speaker 1
Yeah.
And most of the time the changes come so abruptly.
It's I've been tolerating this for so long and now I've just had enough.
And so then I will go into more of a black and white thinking.
I've tolerated this so much and now the marriage is done, but we don't really.
19:07
Speaker 3
Think.
19:08
Speaker 1
Exactly.
And or we get upset.
What we do with it is so poor that then we have to rethink the entire thing.
19:16
Speaker 3
Which then leads to anxiety, right?
And bleeds into other negative emotions as well if we don't master or manage the anger that we're feeling.
19:27
Speaker 1
Yeah, we catastrophize.
We want to avoid it.
And most of the new model of what I take in my work is not just from my master's or from my trainings and certifications.
They're from my own marriage.
My husband and I nearly separated five years ago, following all of us, following our inability to repair after rupture, our deep desire to avoid as much as we possibly could so that we could just keep things moving and not put the energy into it, not really knowing how to.
19:57
And his alcoholism got to be quite wild and.
I thought I was helping and in retrospect I was just enabling and hoping things would get better until we came to this point where we couldn't deny it anymore.
My husband had a full plan to end his life.
20:16
I walked in, everything changed.
He got the support that he needed and the longer he stayed sober, it was at his actual three month sobriety he came home with with his chip and he gifted it to me and was just like, look, this is what I'm doing, this is where I'm at.
20:32
And because I had been tolerating things for so long and contributing poorly in my own way, sure I saw him getting better and I felt worse.
The longer he stayed sober, the more angry I got at him.
And so much of my work was what is this?
20:49
What does that mean?
I'm proud of him and I'm happy for him.
Why am I also even more mad at him than I was when he was using, when he was drinking?
And that sparked so much introspection for me and really digging in deep to understand that that's where the separation talk came from.
21:08
That's where I was just like, I think I've gotten to a point of apathy.
I should be happier that you're sober.
And instead you're going against this narrative that I expected, which was for you to fail.
I don't want you to fail, but I've been conditioned to expect it.
And what do I do with that?
21:23
How do I lead with this?
How do I repair this anxious attachment that I have, this codependency that I have that means that if you stay sober, it'll be my job to keep you that way.
If you relapse, if I eventually lose you to suicide, how will I keep myself from blaming myself?
21:42
And so much of this work came from how do I radically accept that I am so deeply affected by you and that there's quite literally not much I can do about it?
And when we talked about quote UN quote, saving our marriage, we both radically chose to take self responsibility and rewrite those narratives, work through healing our attachment, work through understanding what our needs were before and just the crummy ways that we chose to attempt to get them met.
22:12
And everything snowballed in this really terrible way, but in a way that I'm so deeply grateful for now because we've been able to do this work so effectively and lead with this marriage and continue this marriage, his sobriety, my work in a way that feels achievable that I never saw coming.
22:31
Speaker 3
So anger totally changed your marriage, changed your life.
22:34
Building a Support System and Healing Attachment Wounds
What I just back a little bit, Yeah.
So it it sounds to me like it was probably emotionally safe for you to just status quo, right?
The alcoholism, at least it's stable, at least it's.
22:52
Speaker 1
Predictable.
22:53
Speaker 2
It's predictable, you know, and I want to come back to that because I think a lot of people and probably even a lot of our listeners are in a situation where, like you said, kind of a codependency thing and they don't know it.
23:08
A lot of us don't know it right when it's going on and life is just easier, simpler, more predictable like you said.
23:18
Speaker 3
Even.
23:18
Speaker 2
If it's stinks, more convenient to continue this enabling type of action because what you just said is you didn't want to go back there.
Why?
Why are you so angry?
23:33
And I think people fear this emotional trauma, baggage, work, all these things that are going to be so hard by working the system, working the program and the and they just stay in this for the rest of their lives like they live in it.
23:52
Speaker 3
Dysfunction.
23:53
Speaker 2
I see this quite a bit actually.
And from a medical point of view, Somebody had a disease, a chronic disease and their partner, their spouse, well, they did everything for her and they magically got better.
Medical technology fixed the problem and everything just went to hell in a handbasket in that relationship.
24:18
And you think, oh, just like you just said, this is great, this person got better.
We fixed him.
And what happened is, is just so many years living in this codependency type enabling relationship that the husband developed a new disease that became worse and worse over time.
24:41
And they just went back into their old ways and that's how they lived out their life.
24:48
Speaker 3
Solved the marriage problem her to go back and beat.
24:51
Speaker 2
Everyone's, everyone's safe, everyone's happy, everyone's comfortable in their roles.
But what you're saying is you had to confront this anger.
Why am I angry?
Because my husband's doing the program right.
He's getting better.
25:07
And that's hard.
That's emotionally so hard.
25:12
Speaker 1
It was the acknowledgement that I felt it, and also a deep level of disgust with myself for feeling it at all.
And that's what I think ends up happening, is we feel righteous things.
Our emotions are data.
They're telling us something, but we're so quick to judge them that then we stifle it.
25:33
And it was one of these conversations that I remember, oh gosh, I remember talking to my husband and saying, like, good for you.
You know, he brought home this chip.
He brought home a book on Al Anon for me.
And I had such a deep level of like, forget you, screw you.
25:50
Like I don't need to be fixed by you.
You created this rupture.
You did all of this.
And it became this incapability of me at the time to see that, yes, I was trying to help and I enabled this.
Yes, I was trying to help.
26:06
And I keep kept it secret from everyone.
And we tend to only really keep secret things that we are embarrassed of, things that we might be demanded to change and just don't feel capable of.
So I remember this day, we're sitting on this bed and I told him, everyone around you is just baby birding you.
26:24
You go into this treatment center, you get this diagnosis, you get this entire care team all around you.
And then you go to a A and you get this entire team all around you.
And I'm here with our two boys who are 4 years old and one year old.
26:41
And like, where's my Mama bird?
Like where is my support?
Where is this group around me?
And it was during this conversation that I had that dawning of I don't have that.
And that's why I'm mad at you.
That's why I'm mad at him, is that he has this entire team around him built in, who's so proud of him for getting sober.
27:03
And it feels like it's all on him.
The benefit is on him.
The credit is given to him.
And it felt like I was this person who was in the middle of the ocean, treading water, drowning in it, choking on it, and mad at him that I gave him my life jacket.
27:20
He has too.
And he's just bobbing up there doing just fine.
And it was in that moment that I realized I gave him mine.
I was so worried and making sure that he got the adequate care that he needed, that he found the right men's group for a A, that he did all of this.
27:35
And I didn't do any of that for me.
And that was my resentment.
My resentment was envy of his experience, envy of his people who he had around him.
And that was when everything really started to shift.
And I said, oh man, I need a care team.
27:52
I need people around me.
I need credit here for being this person holding these kids down and and holding this home here, keeping a happy face on for my kids while you're doing all of this work.
And very slowly, very incrementally, I started saying the ugly parts out loud and my husband slowly became able to hear them without going into a shame and doom loop about it.
28:20
And we started just being able to share things and express things without an answer having to come of it that we were able to just say, hey, this is what my experience is.
I don't know what meaning I need to take from it, but I need it to have life.
I need to be able to say this.
28:36
And we worked through assigning new language, but it wasn't just mad and angry and livid and frustrated.
It was disappointed and significant, small, scared.
And once we could really assign that language to it and expand our emotional vocabulary, understand what these emotions really meant to us, that's when we were able to make these changes.
29:02
That's when we were able to lean in on each other instead of battling over who has it worse, whose experience was harder, who was more damaged.
It became this thing that we could work together to learn a new language and get really fluent in ourselves and each other while also maintaining good boundary and adjusting our attachment and healing through the work that we were doing.
29:31
Communicating Effectively When Your Partner is Upset
So you're not saying don't speak your truth, don't speak your experience and your emotions and your frustrations.
You're saying learn to sit in discomfort when you're listening to your partner express some of those things without feeling defensive or without feeling shame and doom.
29:54
How do you do that?
29:56
Speaker 1
Oh, it's a lot of self talk.
It should real time.
It's a lot of really knowing what's my job, what's my work and what's his work and what is our work together.
30:05
Speaker 3
And give me some examples of what your work would be.
30:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, so it's even happening now where I'm very attuned to people's energies.
It's just like that kind of thing of when I was a kid.
We're more hyper vigilant.
Somebody walks into the room with a heavier energy and everyone like, you know, that experience.
So I'm very sensitive to that.
30:24
And I know that's just vigilance from my childhood.
That's just patterning within me.
And so when my husband is having an off day, when he's grumpy, when his energy is a bit heavier, I have a tendency to one, assume he's mad at me, two, try to fix it for him because it's uncomfortable for me to sit in.
30:45
So I start with just acknowledging that something's off.
I check in with myself to see if there's something off within me, and if not, I go to him.
And I don't say what's wrong.
I constantly recommend that we don't start with what's wrong.
31:01
It's putting the burden on someone else to share it.
And it's also relatively accusatory to say that something's wrong with them, right, right off the bat.
So I'll say something like your energy shifted it.
What's on your brain.
Oh.
31:13
Speaker 3
I love that.
31:14
Speaker 1
Your energy feels heavier today.
Is something weighing on you?
And if he says I'm fine, nothing.
My work is to say, well, I'm here if that changes, I would like for you to let me in.
31:29
If you're not ready for that, that's totally cool.
I get it.
I'm here when and if that changes.
And so I leave it open.
What I used to do was just pry and pry and pry until I invaded his privacy, until I demanded that he give me something.
31:44
And then by the end of it, it was just like, you're nagging me, like leave me alone.
Let me feel what I need to feel.
31:50
Speaker 3
While you were nagging him or chasing him down an alleyway or whatever to get that information from him, then he gives it to you and then what do you do with it?
Right when you're in that control situation, that's where the gloom and doom comes.
32:03
Speaker 2
She tries to fix it, my love.
32:04
Speaker 3
She tries to fix it.
32:06
Speaker 2
The solution?
32:07
Speaker 1
Or I decide that it's not a good enough reason.
We do this constantly.
We hear people tell us why they're upset, and then we determine whether it's an adequate reason, whether it's justifiable in a.
32:19
Speaker 3
And if it's not, we try to tell them why it's not.
32:22
Speaker 1
Exactly.
And so if I'm uncomfortable with his discomfort, if I'm uncomfortable with his anger or his frustration or disappointment or heavy energy, I'm going to try to get rid of it as soon as possible.
I'm either going to try to fix it myself, or I'm going to attempt to diminish it to such a degree that they can't help but see how ridiculous it is and move on.
32:43
Whereas now I know that I can't do that for him.
I've tried.
32:48
Speaker 3
And that's where you're talking about painting in a corner or that they have no escape.
32:52
Speaker 1
It becomes this, that what I can do in that moment is acknowledge that there's a heavy energy.
I can acknowledge that that's what I'm experiencing from them.
Give them an opportunity to offload it with me.
Give me your raw data.
If you still haven't kind of pieced it together yet.
33:08
See if I can be this person for you that you can think out loud with and I won't take offense and I won't make your problem my problem.
And if you're not ready, how do I soothe myself to tolerate the fact that they are not ready?
And that's most of where my work comes from.
33:24
He's more traditionally avoidant, if not disorganized, attached.
I am deeply, deeply anxious.
And so my work is becoming more secure so that I can say, OK, he's just not ready.
I have faith that he will be ready at some point.
33:39
I have faith that we will work together to remedy it.
And in the meantime, what can I do for me?
I used to be mad at him for not being ready to open up to me because I couldn't be OK until we were OK.
But if I can acknowledge that we will, that I trust the future version of ourselves, even if it's 4 minutes from now to be able to navigate this together, then I can sit in that discomfort for longer.
34:03
And I can also allow for it to be that sometimes he doesn't need to talk to me about it and allow for that to be OK.
That that's not disconnection.
That's not emotional neglect, that's him handling his stuff for himself without needing.
34:17
The Hidden Power and Pitfalls of Internalized Anger
Me.
When I hear that someone's angry, I think of more like you're talking about the external demonstrations of that.
But I think it's interesting that you're shining light on the fact that a lot of us and as you pointed out, women often pulled it inside.
34:34
Do you feel painted in a corner or corralled with that kind of anger as well?
34:41
Speaker 1
Yeah, so my husband's was always very typical masculine aggressive, right expression and he would feel anger and then his was external aggression.
I would feel anger and I would kind of immediately shame myself for feeling it, feel really gross inside for having it at all and worry that what does this mean about later?
35:03
I would emotionally punish I without realizing it, I would unintentionally emotionally shame him for not being able to adequately hold his anger.
It would come up in different ways where I didn't actively intentionally withhold intimacy, emotional, sexual, all of those.
35:22
But I did.
And there would be times that there was this discomfort and engaging in certain ways with him if I was mad at him.
And then I learned that it wasn't just about me or just about him.
It was about our dynamic together, so I had much more of a feminine energy kind of approach to it, which is where I shoved it down and then emotionally would withdraw.
35:45
I would then give silent treatment once he came back from running all over town, getting that energy out of his body.
The minute he came back, I felt safe because he was here.
He came back, right?
My neglect, my abandonment wound or felt like they were healed in that moment.
36:01
There was a Band-Aid, and then once I felt safe enough, then it would go, no, I don't want to talk.
No, you can figure it out.
And then I got to feel like I had some power and control in there to then punish him emotionally and shut him out in a way that he did physically for me.
36:19
And so much of our work is understanding what that meant.
Yes, I was hurt.
Yes, I felt these ways.
And when he comes back, we don't need to further the punishment.
36:30
Speaker 2
Doesn't it feel so good though?
36:31
Speaker 1
Oh my God, it does so good and I wish people would acknowledge that.
36:35
Speaker 2
Yeah, it feels so good to have the power in what's going on.
If I choose to shut down and Stonewall, the power is all on me and it feels really, really good.
36:50
Speaker 1
It does, because then I'm not vulnerable to you anymore.
Yeah.
I'm not just affected by you.
I have say here, but it's only in those moments, yeah.
36:59
Speaker 2
Exactly, I want to get rid of that feeling but I have also have to acknowledge it that it feels kind of good.
37:07
Speaker 1
Well, and I think it's that and that does feel really good.
And what feels better is actually getting to a better repair and connection.
37:16
Speaker 2
That's true.
37:16
Speaker 1
You know, a lot of people say that anger doesn't feel good.
I think it feels amazing.
I think it feels empowering.
I feel powerful.
I feel like I'm advocating for myself.
I'm omnipotent for a hot 2nd.
It's only the destruction that we caused afterward that feels gross.
37:33
But if, if any of us would be willing to admit the parts that feel good and instead say, yeah, and there is this part that I do feel powerful.
I do feel like I'm in control.
I do feel dominant.
At the end of the day, we are survival beings and we are going to feel really good when we are in power.
37:52
And we can take that rush, that experience, and instead put it toward that path of least regret.
Yes, it feels really good when I am loud, when I advocate, and then I feel terrible in those moments.
38:08
But if I can acknowledge that, yes, that feels really good.
And I can maintain that really good feeling by managing myself in a way that's worth repeating.
That doesn't scare my children.
I don't become this point of their fear and their safety at the same time.
38:24
That feels way better than that fleeting powerlessness.
It doesn't last as long.
I can release it that much faster.
I can put it down that much faster if I know that I'm actually working to help them and help me over time.
38:38
Transform Generational Dysfunction by Owning Your Actions
So I think this gives us the ability to transform generational dysfunction and bad behavior, right?
If we're learning when we know better, we do better.
Awareness is the first step probably.
38:54
And so if people are like, oh, I wonder if there's more to this than what I've noticed in the past.
What are some of the big key points that people could look for in themselves?
What kind of insight, self-awareness might they be looking for that would help them recognize?
39:11
Yep, I have some issues here.
39:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's one acknowledging that we all do.
We're all primed, we're all wired to experience it.
And where I always want people to start is within their body of what's your cue for me, my heart starts racing and my palms get sweaty.
It's almost always my first cue.
39:28
Secondly is learning more about you and the things that flare you.
And I've created this quiz on my website that anyone can take.
It's the anger archetype quiz that basically narrows it down to 5 main archetypes, 5 personas that we take on in order to protect something more vulnerable.
39:46
So we have the defender who is protecting against criticism, low self worth.
We have the exile who's protecting against rejection, who's just really craving belonging.
That's me.
The majority of people who take the quiz fall under exile.
We have the judge who is advocating for injustice.
40:03
Something doesn't feel fair, and I want fairness coming through.
We also have the commander who's demanding respect.
If I feel disrespected, that's what's going to flare me up.
And ultimately, we have the Sentinel, which is advocating for safety.
I'm protecting myself from danger.
40:20
And so if we can understand, all of these will flare all of us to some degree.
But what's your top?
You can start playing the tape back of a low risk experience of something that upset you and see which one did I step into at that time, What was I really working to protect?
40:37
And if we can remove our behaviors, our reactions from the original upset, something that was at risk, the original vulnerability, then I can reverse engineer it.
I can understand myself to a different degree and de villainize the part of me that I got got angry.
40:54
Our anger is righteous.
The things that spark us are righteous and true and valid and real.
What we do with it is so problematic that we feel the need or we demand, like I used to do for my husband, demand that they walk the entire thing back.
That if they're going to apologize for the way that they handled their anger, they need to also go back and apologize for getting angry at all.
41:16
And that's the number one thing I tell my children is I'm not sorry for being angry.
I'm not sorry for getting upset.
I am sorry for what I did with it.
What I did with it wasn't helpful.
The reason why I got upset valid.
You put a pillow over your brother's face.
41:33
That scared me.
I was really scared in that moment and my fear turned into anger, which turned into me lifting you off of him aggressively.
That's what happened.
My original upset, totally real and true.
I was scared.
41:48
Anger came through to advocate.
Anger came through to pull off and say, what are you thinking in order to emotionally punish in some way, because I don't ever want you putting a pillow over brother's face.
So if we can break it down into each of these steps that first came this, then came this, here's what I did with it, then we know what to do next.
42:12
I was really scared.
I'm not sorry that I got scared.
I'm grateful that my anger came through in order to bring me here to remove you from him.
And I'm sorry that I got loud with you.
I'm sorry that I allowed my fear to come through as aggression.
42:30
Speaker 3
So then you apologize for the behavior that was a result of the emotion, rather than apologizing for the emotion.
I like that a lot.
42:41
Speaker 2
You know, it's a little bit like our autopsy episode.
42:44
Speaker 3
I was thinking the same thing.
42:45
Speaker 2
Just the facts, ma'am.
42:46
Speaker 3
Yep, we walk through the facts, but this adds to that.
42:50
Speaker 2
Yeah, this is a great perspective on that.
Yeah, a lot of us are.
We're ashamed of our anger.
We don't want to be angry.
We think that there's a defect, A flaw.
We all say, oh, nobody's perfect, but we don't live it.
43:02
Speaker 1
Right.
43:02
Speaker 2
We acknowledge it, but we don't live it.
And at least I don't.
And I think I'm a lot like a lot of people, I'm never supposed to be angry again.
Never.
And you're saying no, actually be grateful for it it.
43:18
Speaker 3
Shows you where the gaps are.
43:20
Speaker 2
Well, it protects you in a way, or you know, it's a reflex.
43:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, Demands you take action for advocacy, right?
And I think it's something that we haven't understood for such a long time.
Anything we don't understand, we villainize because it's the unknown.
But if we know what to do with it instead, right.
My husband grew up in a household that was quite aggressive.
His father was quite aggressive.
43:43
And so his whole thing growing up was, well, I'm not going to be like that.
I'm not going to be a dad like that.
OK, well, what are you going to be instead?
But you focus on.
I won't get angry next time.
I won't get loud next time.
I won't call you a name.
43:59
I won't throw things, break things, punch things.
OK, well, you're not telling your brain what else to do instead.
We're not focusing on what we do want to do instead.
And that's what anger helps us do, is really see where my gaps lie.
Where am I vulnerable here?
Where am I at risk?
44:15
And what do I do about it?
44:18
Speaker 2
Love it.
44:19
Speaker 3
This has been so awesome and I'm sure a lot of people are going to want to go take your quiz.
Where do they find that quiz?
44:26
Speaker 1
So it's on any of my socials is at a steady space, it's all linked there.
Or they can go directly to my website, which is a steady space and it's right there on the homepage.
44:36
Speaker 3
Study or steady?
44:37
Speaker 1
Steady A.
44:38
Speaker 3
Steady space.
44:40
Speaker 1
The whole thing in the naming of my practice was really that I don't want there to be so much focus on happiness or the highs, or so much on the lows.
My goal in life in general is to feel steady, to find my balance, feel like even if I get a bit off kilter, I can find my way back.
44:56
And that's what I work to do for my clients is help them make any space that they're in their study space.
45:03
Speaker 3
Wonderful because we always teach that to change the stinky or the stale parts of your relationship first requires a change in yourself and you demonstrated that beautifully today.
We need to look at both of ourselves and how we are integrating and working together to manage those emotions that typically are considered really negative.
45:25
Thank you so much for being with us here today.
We hope that you'll check out our social media this week and our YouTube channel and until next week.
45:34
Speaker 2
We'll see you on another exciting episode of.
45:36
Speaker 3
Mary, thank you.
