Episode 149: Sexual Shame in Marriage: How to Feel Free, Confident & Connected
Breaking Free From Shame and Reconnecting With Your Body
When Sexual Shame Gets in the Way of Intimacy
Sexual intimacy in marriage can carry far more emotional weight than most couples realize. Desire, attraction, body image, expectations, religious beliefs, past experiences, and ideas about what sex “should” look like can all enter the bedroom with us.
Sometimes, what gets in the way of connection isn't a lack of love or attraction. It is shame.
In this episode of Marriage IQ, Dr. Heidi and Dr. Scott Hastings sit down with marriage and intimacy expert Dan Purcell, founder of Get Your Marriage On and co-creator of the Intimately Us app, to explore how sexual shame can quietly affect a marriage-and what couples can do about it.
Shame Often Begins With “Something Is Wrong With Me”
Dan shares a story from the first week of his marriage. At 22, with very little sexual education, he had questions about his body's normal sexual response. Instead of having an answer, he wondered whether something was wrong with him.
He eventually went to his university library looking for information. But when he found a textbook containing illustrations of sexual positions, he became embarrassed and assumed he had stumbled upon pornography. He returned the book without getting the answer he was looking for.
It took him 13 years to understand what he had been worried about.
His story illustrates how easily a lack of knowledge can create shame. When we don't understand our bodies or sexual responses, we can fill the gaps with fear, comparison, or assumptions.
As Dan explains, shame often sounds like “I should be different,” “I shouldn't feel this way,” or “Something is wrong with me.”
Body Shame Can Make Intimacy Difficult
Body image is another common source of sexual shame.
Pregnancy, aging, weight changes, and simply getting older can change the way we see ourselves. Someone may think, “I don't look like I used to,” and begin avoiding intimacy because they don't feel comfortable being seen.
Dan compares it to having a messy house when guests are coming over. If you don't like what you see, you may not want anyone else to come inside.
He also points out that body-image pressure affects both men and women, although women often receive stronger cultural messages about how they are supposed to look.
One helpful shift is moving from criticism toward gratitude. Instead of focusing entirely on what has changed, couples can practice appreciating what their bodies allow them to experience-hugging their children, moving through life, feeling pleasure, and sharing affection.
That shift can also change the experience of sexual intimacy. Rather than constantly evaluating how the body looks, a person can become more present to how the body feels.
Mindfulness Can Bring Couples Back Into the Moment
Sexual intimacy requires presence, but modern life often trains us to do the opposite.
Dan describes mindfulness as slowing down enough to actually notice what is happening in your body instead of getting lost in thoughts, worries, or self-criticism.
He shares a simple practice he teaches couples: a full-body scan. With relaxed breathing, a person slowly moves their attention through their body, noticing areas of tension and intentionally relaxing them.
For couples, this can create a completely different starting point for intimacy.
Instead of rushing from a busy day directly into the expectation that intimacy should happen, slowing down gives both partners an opportunity to become present, relaxed, and connected.
Knowing What You Want Matters
Another important theme in the conversation is self-differentiation-the ability to understand your own wants and boundaries while remaining connected to your partner.
This becomes especially important when spouses disagree about something.
Dan describes couples who struggle when one partner wants a particular sexual activity or change and the other doesn't. Saying “Fine, I'll do it” when you really don't want to can create resentment and a sense of self-betrayal.
But the opposite extreme isn't necessarily healthy either. Marriage requires two individuals who can maintain their own sense of self while also considering what is best for the relationship.
Sometimes you may genuinely change your mind. Other times, you may realize that something isn't right for you.
The important part is taking the time to discover what you actually think and feel instead of automatically saying yes-or automatically saying no.
Curiosity Can Replace Judgment
Shame tends to shut down curiosity. It tells us that certain thoughts, desires, questions, or feelings are evidence that something is wrong with us.
Curiosity asks a different question:
“Why do I feel this way?”
That small shift can create room for learning.
Dan encourages couples to explore their beliefs, separate facts from assumptions, and become more thoughtful about where their ideas about sex came from. This can be particularly important when cultural messages and religious beliefs become intertwined.
The goal isn't to discard personal values. It's to understand them more clearly and approach differences with humility, openness, and respect.
Intimacy Doesn't Have to Be Perfect
Perhaps the most encouraging message from this conversation is that couples don't have to have everything figured out.
Sexual intimacy is something people continue learning about throughout marriage. Bodies change. Relationships change. Desires change. What worked years ago may not work forever.
That doesn't mean something is wrong.
Dan encourages couples to give themselves grace, laugh when things don't go perfectly, stay curious, and allow themselves to learn together.
Instead of asking, “Am I normal?” or “Am I doing this right?” couples might begin asking:
“What do I want?”
“What does my partner want?”
“What helps us feel connected?”
“What can we learn about ourselves together?”
Those questions can turn shame into understanding-and understanding can create more freedom, connection, and intimacy in marriage.
Ultimately, a healthier intimate relationship isn't built by knowing every answer. It's built by becoming more comfortable being present, honest, curious, and human with the person you love.
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Speaker 1
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1:17
Speaker 2
Welcome to Marriage IQ, the podcast helping you become an intelligent spouse.
1:23
Speaker 1
I'm Heidi Hastings.
1:25
Speaker 2
And I'm Scott Hastings.
1:28
Speaker 1
I walked into the bedroom carrying a whole lot more than just desire I carried.
Shame came about my body after having babies in shame when my body didn't respond in the way that I thought it should.
Even shame around what was OK to want or try.
1:44
And now years later, and even though sex has been part of my research in this channel for the past few years, that shame hasn't completely disappeared.
It's just changed shape, like wrinkles and aging, not feeling as desirable as I used to.
2:01
And I see the same quiet, heavy narratives and so many of the women that I work with.
Does sexual shame also show up for men, you might be asking.
It does, and we're going to talk about that too.
Shame might be silently shaping your marriage and how you show up for sex more than you even realize.
2:22
Speaker 2
Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Marriage IQ, where we help you turn the stinky parts of your marriage into something a little more scintillating.
Oh, sorry.
We're your host, Doctor Scott and Heidi Hastings, and today we're talking about something that quietly erodes both freedom and passion in marriage.
2:46
And we could not have a better guide for this conversation than our good friend Dan Purcell.
2:52
Speaker 1
We're so excited to have Dan with us.
Dan and his wife Emily are the founders of Get Your Marriage On, and they also created the Intimately Us app that's been downloaded hundreds of thousands of times that helps couples bring fun and play and passion back into their relationships.
3:09
He also hosts the Get Your Marriage On podcast, which we were a guest on episode 225.
3:15
Speaker 2
Where we talked about the secret to a scintillating sex life.
Yeah.
3:19
Speaker 1
And he also works directly with couples.
So after nearly 20 years of marriage and six kids, Dan's the right person to help us today.
So welcome Dan Purcell.
3:34
Speaker 3
Nice.
I expect applause there.
Thank.
3:37
Speaker 2
You it's part of our millions of people watching and listening right that's.
3:40
Speaker 3
Great.
3:41
Speaker 1
And we do have to say we did have Dan and his wife Emily on Episode 14 when we very first started.
And we have to give Dan a lot of credit for help in getting us started as a mentor to me when I reached out and said, hey, I'm thinking about starting a podcast.
3:59
So Dan, we owe a lot to you.
And we're just really happy that you've agreed to be with us again today.
4:04
Speaker 3
Oh you're very kind.
You 2 have been a mentor to me too in other areas also so thank you.
4:10
Speaker 1
Quid pro quo, that's the way it works.
So Dan, we are, like we said, talking today about sexual shame.
And I just wondered if you've got a story about anytime in your life where that showed up for you.
4:27
Speaker 3
Yes, so I was married 22 years old.
My wife and I was 22.
Also very little sex education.
Besides you know how babies are made.
And now I'm a newlywed.
I've been married a week at this time and sex is this most amazing thing.
4:44
It's great.
But I have all of these questions.
There's so many things I just don't understand.
The biggest thing I wanted to understand at that time is why is it after I ejaculate I lose my erection?
Sorry to be so.
5:01
I'll put in those words because that was exactly because all the love songs say to Make Love all night long and I could like, how am I supposed to Make Love all night long?
I thought maybe something was wrong with me.
I never got this part of my sexual education, so I had this question on the back of my mind.
I didn't know at the time that was normal.
5:17
I thought something might have been wrong with me.
So as a student at a university, I figured this library at our universal life, there's got to be book on human sexuality, maybe a textbook if I'm lucky.
But I went to the computers and did a little search and I found a book.
5:34
I made sure no one was looking over my shoulder I was typing in because I didn't want to be caught at all looking this up, right?
So I write down the call number on the little piece of paper they have right by the computer, and I wait until it's more quieter time.
The library, it's on the third floor.
5:49
I'm at that part of library, and I know how libraries are organized, at least with non fiction, several related subjects close by.
I didn't want to get caught in that part of library.
So I go.
My heart's thumping.
I get to that section of the library.
I look left, I look right.
6:06
The coast is clear.
I find the book on the shelf.
I pull it off, I tuck it under my arm, and I just run down the stairs as fast as I can.
And then I had the next challenge, which is getting the book checked out.
Checking out.
Yeah, exactly.
Which means I hand over my student ID card and the attendant, she scans the book, scans my ID card.
6:26
OK, No eye contact at all with her at all.
I didn't want to get caught.
And I tucked into my backpack and I go on with the rest of my day because I had classes and that night I'm at home and I'm like, this has been on my mind all afternoon.
I can't wait to pull out this book and see what I'm going to find.
6:43
And I open the book and it's pretty thick bound book.
I start flipping through some of the pages and what quickly catches my eye is these hand drawn illustrations of couples in various sex positions, like missionary style from behind 69 and things like that.
7:01
And I was so shocked at what I saw.
I thought what I had in my hand was pornography.
So I closed the book, freaked out, and returned the book the next day, never to explore and never to find the answer to my question.
I was kind of ashamed that I kind of had that and that mix of excitement.
7:18
Am I supposed to be excited by this?
Maybe it's wrong for me to be excited about this.
Maybe being excited about sex is like the slippery slope down to hell, and so I shouldn't be interested in these things.
So that's what a lot of the questions that were going on internally at that time for me.
7:36
Speaker 1
How long did it take to get you get the answer to that question?
7:40
Speaker 3
13 years.
7:44
Speaker 1
That's a lot of shame about that.
Wow.
But.
7:47
Speaker 2
When he was sharing the story, it reminded me of of my small story was going to purchase you lingerie before we married.
I wanted to give you some lingerie and I know what you're saying because you walk in the department store and it's the lingerie is in one department and so embarrassing.
8:09
I just looked fast and I could see these salespeople just they're all women just talking to each other.
I'm sure one of them saw me and they're like, I'm just thinking, oh, they're just thinking I'm a pervert in here.
So anyway, I get what you're saying.
8:24
I'm sure we all have some.
8:25
Speaker 1
Story You did the task.
8:26
Speaker 2
Though I did get the, I got the task.
8:28
Speaker 1
Done.
That's one way that shame definitely shows up early in your marriage.
But what are you seeing with clients that you work with?
What are any other ways that shame might show up?
Yeah.
8:42
Speaker 3
Shame shows up anywhere where you think I'm not as good or not great or there's a lot of should words around shame.
I should have more sexual desire than I have, but I don't.
Or I shouldn't be uncomfortable about XY or Z, but I am.
8:59
But ultimately the common thread is it makes me less than or there's something wrong with me.
Or like it's like there's a split within us.
It's that Angel on one shoulder and the devil on the others.
So I don't want to have this devil part of me in there.
9:16
Therefore all of me is somehow infected or with this something.
That's a very common feeling.
Now course shame is natural, I think, and in some ways shame can be a healthy part of living because imagine if you felt zero shame ever.
9:34
It's like living without guardrails or brakes.
So I think ultimately shame does serve some sort of purpose if it's healthy shame, but there is an unhealthy shame also that's I think when we're a little too cautious.
9:49
Speaker 1
Are you saying healthy shame is when it exposes that there's something that needs to change in US?
9:55
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly.
9:56
Speaker 2
So I would probably not call that shame.
I'd probably call that insight.
10:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, or guilt or other words.
Better language for that perhaps, but.
10:04
Speaker 1
But it can.
10:06
Speaker 2
I mean, that is an interesting perspective though that he has on that.
I've always just thought of shame as universally negative to avoid.
But yeah, maybe when you think of it in context of learning insight.
10:19
Speaker 1
And being curious about that, right?
10:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think so too.
10:22
Speaker 2
Instead of judging yourself, which is really right, shame is we are judging ourselves.
We've all been told not to judge others, but that's ultimately judging ourselves very, very poorly.
So anyway, that's kind of how I've looked at that.
But that is an interesting perspective though that you have on this.
10:40
Speaker 3
Another area where shame shows up a lot is shame about our bodies and maybe our shape.
Put on weight, had babies like you mentioned earlier.
Therefore, I'm no longer optimal physically and I'll never get back to that optimal state.
10:56
So I'm doomed for like less than for the rest of my life.
That those kinds of negative feelings are shameful feelings, and they impact a couple's ability to really connect and intimately because you're not letting someone else in because you don't like what's in.
11:14
Why would you want them in?
If I don't feel good in either?
That happens.
It's having a messy house and guests coming over.
You're like, I don't want guests come over because our house is messy.
Yeah, it's that feeling do.
11:27
Speaker 1
You find out body shame is more with women than men?
Or do you see it for both genders?
11:33
Speaker 3
I think in our Western culture, there's so much messaging for women on looking a certain way.
It's our beauty is very commercialized.
It's just in the air we breathe.
I do think women get the message more than men do, but it's not an only women thing.
11:50
I think men get the idea about body image things too.
Maybe in a different way, but I think it affects both genders, but it's more so women than men.
12:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'd agree.
I think it's probably considerably higher than women.
Like much much higher.
12:08
Speaker 1
And yet do you see with body image that if they somehow could turn that around and just be more confident?
I look at women a full 100 lbs more than me who are way more confident with their body than I am with mine and it I'm like how does that work?
12:26
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
12:27
Speaker 1
You do this.
12:28
Speaker 3
Right.
In fact, my wife and I were talking about this this weekend.
We watched a movie a little while ago called I Feel Pretty, and it's a good movie.
The premise is she's a woman who tries.
She doesn't have a good opinion of her own appearance.
12:43
She has an accident, and when she comes to, she looks in the mirror and she just can't believe that she is the most beautiful woman in life.
That's me.
That's me in the mirror.
And it changes her perspective.
Now her friends and everyone can't tell anything that's different.
12:58
But the confidence that she has in herself has changed.
And that's part of the plot of the movie.
And I won't spoil it for you, but that's a really good premise.
Like, if you could wake up.
Yeah.
It's a great date night movie.
If you wake up tomorrow and looked in the mirror and genuinely felt and believed like that character in the movie.
13:16
Holy smokes, I am the most beautiful personal life.
How grateful I am to be in the body that I have.
I think that would help, but I think there's a big leap for a lot of people.
There is one woman I worked with and the husband and wife, but for the wife, she felt a lot of this kind of shame in her body.
13:34
And for her, the big reframe that helped her was not to look in the mirror and see what was wrong with her or what is no longer a reality for her, but framing everything in terms of gratitude.
I'm grateful to be alive.
I'm grateful to have arms I can hug my kids with.
13:52
I'm grateful that I have legs, that I can still run around and be with my kids and do the things that I want to do.
I'm grateful to have a heart that pumps, a mind that helps me think.
And as she started putting things in that frame, she started to really appreciate her body for what joyful experiences she does experience, rather than focusing on what she doesn't have.
14:12
It was more of a glass full than a glass.
Yeah.
Half empty.
Kind of an.
14:16
Speaker 2
Abundance mindset.
14:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Was she able to translate that into her sexual experience with her husband as well?
14:25
Speaker 3
Yes, and how it helped is during sexist.
I'm grateful I have a body that can feel pleasure, right?
It's not so much about am I overweight?
Do I have Cellulite on my legs or whatever that it is More like I this feels great and I like this guy and she genuinely liked her husband and he likes me.
14:45
And just to allow and accept that feel this pleasure, it's really good.
I like the sensation of it all.
14:52
Speaker 2
That sounds to me like sexual mindfulness.
14:55
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
14:57
Speaker 2
Like just really being present.
15:00
Speaker 3
In your body.
15:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, right.
15:03
Speaker 1
Not letting our thoughts run away.
All of the fears, so many of the ones that you just mentioned, that woman thought I've heard many, many times and I think are very common.
So I love that reframe.
It helps us control our thoughts or just move our thoughts totally out and pay attention to the sensations within our body.
15:23
Speaker 3
Right.
Can you tell a story about meditation too?
I think ties into this.
Last night we went to a concert as a family.
We get there at the parking lot is absolutely full.
We get in and every single seat is taken.
And in the very, very back, they had pews that were facing the opposite direction.
15:43
We decide we're going to stay.
So we experienced an hour and a half wonderful concert with singing and music, facing the other way, kind of in the dark.
And talk about mindfulness.
This was an experience where we could just really slow down and really just start to concentrate and focus when a everyday normal for us like go, go, go, go, go.
16:05
It was a huge contrast and I think I enjoyed the concert more because the circumstances were forced in kind of made me sit down and really listen.
I think sexually couples can do that too and we could talk about that more if you like.
16:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, I love that.
That is really cool.
So are you saying blindfold each other or?
16:25
Speaker 3
Yeah, you could try that.
Sometimes that might actually be pretty hot.
Might be if you find that erotic, be very erotic.
16:32
Speaker 1
Yeah, Share more.
16:33
Speaker 3
My wife and I teach mini online retreat.
We call these our virtual getaways once in a while and in our very first session we teach.
It's very common mindfulness practice, a full body scan.
You basically get settled, deep breathing and then you just scan through your whole body.
16:50
You find points of tension and you just slowly try to relax that in your mind's eye.
You bring your breath into that area to relax it.
And after 5 minutes of that, we ask our participants now if you were to have sex now from this state of being where you're relaxed in your body, what would that do to your sexual experiences compared to rush, rush, rush, rush.
17:12
OK, fine.
Take clothes off.
And we jumped in bed expecting something to happen.
It's a very different approach starting from this more mindful, relaxed state.
Yeah.
17:23
Speaker 2
Are you seeing younger couples?
Didn't like newlyweds?
They've been married for a long time?
What do you usually see?
Or is it just the smattering of both?
17:31
Speaker 3
I don't work with newlyweds that much, it's couples in midlife is who I work with.
17:36
Speaker 1
It's mostly our audience.
I think you have a few exceptions.
17:41
Speaker 2
So I guess getting back to your original story here about like the normal sexual Physiology of men, right?
So it sounds like you were able to figure it out at some point.
17:52
Speaker 3
Yes.
17:54
Speaker 2
I guess that knowledge then allowed you to not have that shame, right?
To not feel shame then, right?
18:01
Speaker 3
Yes, I think knowledge is always the the first step.
The more we know and understand, it helps us combat shame.
It's normal for a penis to lose an erection after ejaculation.
18:17
There are exceptions to that, but generally speaking, that's normal and understanding oh, that's normal can take that sting of that shame away.
In that example, it's normal for women in midlife to gain a little extra weight.
It's how their body prepares for perimenopause and menopause.
18:35
That's how it's supposed to be.
That's a very common body response.
Not everyone's that way, but it is part of growing and aging, and that's a normal function.
And once you can understand that, it's like, OK, nothing's gone wrong.
This is just the way bodies are.
18:52
This is what happens if you remove some of that body shame.
18:54
Speaker 1
With men that you talk to, especially when you're talking to couples, I know women.
That would be very helpful to understand.
That's normal.
But we may be afraid that our husbands don't know that's normal.
How do you approach that with men and are they cool with that or is that hard for them to accept?
19:14
Speaker 3
It depends on the man.
I got to be careful here because usually it's not just so surface level and you tell him, oh, this is normal, and all of a sudden he gets it.
It's like, oh, no, OK.
And then they're moving on.
That's not usually the case.
There's usually a few layers down deeper where things go.
19:30
I'm reminding of a couple where they're both very athletic.
They work out at the gym, they raise their kids well together, They get along really well.
But he really wanted his wife to get a mommy makeover surgery, and he's had friends that have done it, and he thinks those friends, those female friends, look fantastic afterwards.
19:52
But his wife was not interested in a surgery for that.
For her, it was risky, it was unnecessary, and if she did it, she'd only be doing it for him, which didn't feel like a good enough reason.
And so she could tell him or I could tell him till I'm blue in the face how beautiful the wife is and everything.
20:10
And he shouldn't be worrying about that.
But it won't help.
It doesn't help him because there's something deeper at the root of the issue that we need to get to and was for him.
That was something we needed to explore with him to get deeper.
So it's not just surface level.
Oh, you tell him this is the way it is or whatever and then they're OK with it.
20:29
Usually there's deeper things.
20:31
Speaker 1
So if there are deeper things, then we send them to talk to you.
20:35
Speaker 3
Or a trusted friend or a counselor to belong to a church and you have wise older couples that are pastor, ecclesiastical leader, whatever that can really help you with that.
I think that could root very helpful.
I think we do need helpful people, but ultimately I think we need to confront our own fears.
20:56
What do things mean to us?
Why do we hold on to things that are so dear to us?
Why is so important?
And sometimes part of life is learning to let go.
Part of life is accepting that things aren't going to work out all the time and be able to live with some degree of disappointment and be OK with that is a healthy part of living well, I think.
21:19
Speaker 2
I remember from our last episode you mentioned this same thing, and I think that's a great point.
That was that Rod Stewart has said you don't always get what you want.
I think there is some people who disagree with that.
You should always get what you want.
21:36
But to your point, Dan, I think that's important is learning how to sit in this discomfort of not getting what I want all the time.
But what what is that?
What kind of a life does that mean?
If I'm always getting what I want, what kind of person am I turning into?
21:51
Certainly not a an emotionally intelligent one, in my view anyway.
21:55
Speaker 1
But I do see the wife in that story as being really emotionally intelligent.
She understood self differentiation enough to say I don't want to do this just for you.
I have to be true to myself too.
Yes, that's amazing.
22:12
Speaker 2
Yes, he's a strong, flexible self.
22:14
Speaker 1
I would think there are a whole lot of women who would do it just because the husband wanted it.
22:19
Speaker 3
That's really good and not throw him under the bus too.
But this was his learning opportunity to practice differentiation for him because he wanted his wife to do it.
So he'd resort to control strategies like outing, withholding, sex is OK, it'd be better if you had better tone again or shape, whatever, right?
22:41
It's kind of making it known that she'll never be good enough for him until that strategy that he was trying.
He had to see how that was not helping him.
Ultimately what they really wanted, which was closeness, intimacy, those joyful feelings that come, it was sabotaging it unwittingly.
23:01
So helping him understand that was part of the path.
But you're right, it's that differentiation piece helps us grow up.
23:07
Speaker 1
Really, really important to emphasize again what you just said, that anytime we try to control our partner, it has the opposite effect of what we think it's going to have many times, maybe not always, but even if the person allowed you to control them, there's going to be resentment there.
23:27
Speaker 3
Yes, yes.
23:28
Speaker 2
Unless that spouse reframes the conversation and has a conversation with themselves and say OK what is this worth and can I do this?
Sometimes they get to that point where they say yes.
23:47
The problem lies is when they don't really believe themselves and they end up doing it for their spouse.
That's the problem.
23:54
Speaker 1
Can I give an example for that?
And Dan, here's a question for you then.
So what I talked about earlier with maybe having shame over things that one partner wants to do and the other one doesn't, without self differentiation, you would do it without wanting to and then resent it and feel bad about it, right?
24:14
But that also doesn't mean that you won't ever change your mind.
So kind of walk us through how that type of shame plays out.
24:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, so the example could be getting a surgery, or it could be a new sexual behavior or an activity, right?
One person wants to do it, the other person doesn't.
There's a lot of ways different respond, But the example we're giving is fine, I'll do it to please you, but I'm not going to enjoy this.
24:41
I'm going to resent it.
I'm just doing it for you.
There is a self betrayal that goes into that, right?
Because you're going against a little bit about what you want yourself and you lose a little bit of yourself respect stepping into that kind of a scenario also.
24:59
But it's difficult to balance and it is a balance and it's going to depend on your marriage and your situation because the opposite.
It also isn't healthy either, where this, the advice instead is never give in, always stand on your own, what you think is the only thing that really matters because if you keep in that trajectory for too long, you're not going to be in a relationship anymore.
25:24
So there is this fine tension.
And the answer isn't so black and white, I think.
And it's going to be a lot of nuance there depending on the couple.
But it's a commitment to what brings out the best in me, what brings out the best in US.
25:40
And we're it's kind of this, this tension, living in that tension and trying to resolve this paradox as a couple is ultimately what both people will need to require.
And you need to do it with a great deal of humility.
You need to do it with a great deal of trust and openness, curiosity.
25:58
Those are the skills, that's the character building that we forge as we step into trying to understand that a little bit better.
26:07
Speaker 1
So with the example of a sexual act or activity or scenario that maybe my husband is all for and I'm not, but I do it.
And I feel shame not only because I gave up part of myself, but I may also feel shame because that's not something a good girl would do or not something that my religious narratives support, or at least the ones I've heard my friends talk about or whatever it is.
26:38
Can knowledge change that I might feel differently about it under different circumstances?
Or can the circumstances change?
Or do I just need to say we're not approaching this again?
I'm drawing my line in the sand.
Tell me what you think.
26:54
Speaker 2
About that, it's nuanced.
26:58
Speaker 3
It is nuanced and I think our beliefs are important, especially religious beliefs.
Sometimes we need to learn to celebrate theology from culture.
A lot of times that we think is our religion is more dictated by the culture around our theology rather than what the actual theology teaches.
27:17
So learning how to separate that requires a lot of maturity, but it's a willingness to explore that.
There was a couple I worked with where he really wanted oral sex to be part of their sexual repertoire in their lovemaking.
She was very hesitant to that.
27:33
It didn't matter if it was who's giving or receiving, just the whole concept of it was difficult in her religious upbringing.
That was sinful and wrong for him.
Even though they belong to the same religion.
He's like, I don't think that was ever taught.
27:48
It was.
So even though you have the same religion, you'll have different interpretations or different experiences for something as specific as a sexual behavior.
And working through that tension as a couple required both of them to be a little humble.
28:06
Now it brought up a lot of those losing strategies in their relationship.
He was very controlling.
Read this article.
I'm going to persuade you that this church leader who may have said that once, retracted his statement or whatever it is right there is that in there.
28:23
And for her part, she'd say, OK, fine, go ahead, we'll do it.
And then hated it the whole time and made it a miserable experience for him to kind of make it so that he'll never want it again.
It's not bringing out the best in both people.
28:40
So I think couples, if they can have the awareness to go, wait a minute here.
Let's both take a big step back.
And this isn't what we're fighting about.
Like oral sex isn't actually really about oral sex.
I mean, it is.
But what we're really doing is how we are approaching this together as a couple isn't building the kind of marriage we really want.
29:02
That takes a little more maturity, I think, kind of separating how we're just in reaction to each other from being a little more principled and how we're going to approach it.
Now, knowledge does help.
OK, let's explore this.
Let's learn about it temporarily.
Set aside certain beliefs.
29:19
Let's take the morality out of it just for a moment so we can explore and analyze this together.
But ultimately, that makes it sound like a very intellectual pursuit.
And in my experience, it sounds good to intellectualize sex, but so much of it is not an intellectual experience.
29:35
It's more of an emotional or embodied experience.
So a lot of it is just learning how to relax and let your body's natural desires and impulses kind of run the show sometimes, which is again, another paradox, another tension we need to work through for a couple.
But I do think there's value in couples taking a step back and stop intellectualizing things sometimes and just go, but this is what my body likes and wants or why my body doesn't like and want this.
30:03
And just to really tune into that.
There's a lot of wisdom in that, too.
30:07
Speaker 2
I think practicing curiosity may help us with learning with knowledge.
Just practicing being curious about not just sex but a lot of things in life and challenging each other to be curious I think will help.
30:25
The other thing too is, Dan, I don't think, I honestly don't think a lot of people know what they want.
And I have a story to back this up.
My wife wanted to move into a new house and I didn't.
30:41
And so I placated her by going to these open houses and looking at houses and things and but I could tell eventually it was a big deal to her.
I had to sit with myself, not with her.
Now with anyone else said OK, is this what I want anyway?
30:59
And I came to the decision that after sitting there it's OK, I'm in.
So now everything changed and now I went from sacrifice for my wife to now this is what I want to do.
This is what I want to do.
31:15
And so I started getting excited about it because now I wanted to do it and decide.
31:20
Speaker 1
What's my motivation here?
31:23
Speaker 2
Now second example my wife wanted to buy a freeze dryer.
I don't like that idea I said.
I don't ever see myself using a freeze dryer.
So again I sat with myself.
I said OK is this what I want?
I feel like Tevya when he's just trying to decide all of his daughters wanting to get married.
31:40
Like what do I do?
I love Tevya and the fiddler on the roof.
Anyway I came to the decision that after sitting there my wife really wants this freeze dryer.
I don't want a freeze dryer, I said.
I'm not into this.
31:55
You can buy it if you want.
And so she bought it anyway.
31:59
Speaker 1
But when the freeze dryer broke, he wasn't the one that had to.
32:02
Speaker 2
Fix it.
That's right.
I she said hey, this freeze dryer is broke.
And I said, well.
32:07
Speaker 1
Figure it out.
32:09
Speaker 2
That's that's really hard.
That's really tough.
Maybe you can get on the phone and and work with the customer service.
So just to kind of support what you're saying, Dan, that we got to find out what we want and then we need to make a decision and go with that and be behind it.
32:28
Because I think a lot of the problems in our relationships is we just don't know what we want.
32:35
Speaker 1
That's true and one of our guests mentioned maybe having a menu of what we want.
That would help, but also I think slowing things down.
Non intimate kind of sexual experience with our spouse.
It's going to be very different than one that's just completely slowed down and takes time and is very intimate.
32:56
And the desire and the passion has had time to manifest for women, which we know is slower than it is for men.
And I think that makes a difference in accepting things as well.
33:08
Speaker 2
I saw those things, guys.
Why don't you ever want sex?
And she says I'm like an oven, have to Preheat.
And he said I didn't marry an oven.
So anyway, I know it goes back and forth all.
33:20
Speaker 1
One of the other questions I have on shame for you that I've heard come up with a few of my clients and friends and other people, the idea of maybe for some women it takes what some would call fantasy.
33:38
Speaker 3
To.
33:39
Speaker 1
Actually, to be able to orgasm, I don't know if you find that or if you don't, but then a lot of women feel very shameful about that.
That's again, not something that a good woman would do.
Can you?
33:50
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Are they ashamed of the content of their fantasies, or a shame that they have to fantasize in order to get there?
33:57
Speaker 1
I think they haven't even dipped a toe in, but the recommendation that might help feels scary.
34:06
Speaker 3
The recommendation that fantasizing would help.
Still scary?
Yeah.
34:13
Speaker 1
And I've learned to call it maybe storytelling or play seems to land a little bit better, but I think there are probably people a whole lot of.
34:24
Speaker 2
You don't like the term erotic fantasy?
34:27
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Well, and also I think there are those who don't like the content of it.
So you can go anywhere with that.
34:34
Speaker 3
Sounds good, all right?
The very best sexual experiences are when you're like your inner 3 year old is back.
34:43
Speaker 1
OK, tell us more.
34:45
Speaker 3
Right, so your inner 3 year old doesn't have a big vocabulary, but it knows what it likes and what it doesn't like.
It's all about play.
Tons of curiosity right?
Was it 4 year old say ask 400 questions a day compared to a middle schooler that asks 2 questions a day?
35:02
I don't know if that's an accurate statistic but right.
Like open like curious and also highly imaginative play like kids.
They play cops and robbers.
Doesn't mean they're going to grow up to be a cop or a robber, but it's it's a way to put on different personas.
35:21
To be childlike in sex is wonderful and beautiful.
That's how you get good at sex.
In fact, a great sex therapist, Doctor Steven Snyder, talked about how you know it's good sex because you've lost a few IQ points in the process.
35:37
And I believe that's true, right?
Something about the feeling a little bit happy and a little bit Dumber makes for really good sexual experiences.
So fantasy is a great bridge to getting there.
35:53
I believe the teaching.
You know a tree by its fruits.
Is it good fruit?
Then you know it's a good tree.
So does the fantasy ultimately help you experience that good fruit of a good sexually connecting experience with your spouse?
36:09
Heck yeah.
Then use that fantasy to your advantage.
Fantasies are great in that way.
Some people are scared to fantasize and I get it.
It's like me shedding that book that I got from the library.
This is pornography because I saw a hand drawn illustration depicting a sexual position and everything therefore must be categorically bad because I was ashamed that I had such a book in my possession.
36:35
If that is the case, well, as a grew and matured more, there's a huge difference in my case between something that's more salacious, something designed to gratify, like imagery designed to gratify or to channel my sexuality.
36:51
Yeah, something crass, right.
Something outside versus something intended to be beautiful and erotically uplifting.
It was.
So I like when we think so black and white that sexual fantasy equals it's the dark side of things, it's the bad side of things.
37:08
We lose out on how sexual fantasy is the good side of things.
It's the thing that feeds us and nourishes our sexuality.
And we don't talk enough about the positive sides of sexual fantasy.
Is there a dark side?
Yes, but it's not all dark.
There's also very beautiful light side too.
37:24
And you'll know it by its fruits.
Does this fantasy get me to that little Dumber, a little bit happier moment in fact, so I can have a better connection?
Yes.
And use it.
Use it to your advantage.
37:37
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Going back to the story about the three-year old, I really, I like that because I think if we think back to when we were young and we'd get bedtime stories much, Did you look forward to bedtime stories?
Loved bedtime stories?
37:52
Yeah, because you could imagine you can use your little 6 year old mind to think about all these cool things.
And basically, I think what Dan's saying here is we're doing the same thing as adults and we're playing in the sandbox, so to speak.
38:10
It's like going back to the bedtime story, but what we're adults now and it's adult play, it's adult bedtime story and it's just between 2 married people.
And I think maybe that gets where they get nervous is.
38:24
Speaker 1
And some may feel more comfortable about it if those two people are themselves, they're imagining themselves, not other people outside the marriage.
Yeah.
38:35
Speaker 3
Absolutely.
38:35
Speaker 1
In the fantasy, you're in the storytelling.
38:38
Speaker 3
Fantasy doesn't mean you're completely boundary less.
You can still put boundaries, just make those boundaries big and wide enough that they can accommodate.
It's like a fireplace you don't want to itty bitty tiny fireplace you don't want.
No fireplace that'll burn down your house.
38:54
Speaker 1
Well, let's give you the final word here, Dan, on this topic of shame and how it can bring freedom.
39:00
Speaker 3
If you experience some sexual shame, it's a good time to explore it and find out more about it and why.
Learn how to separate facts from fiction and that.
Learn to lean into where you're maybe more reacting emotionally.
39:18
Take a step back.
Think about if I were to look at this as my most mature self, maybe imagine yourself if I was five years older or 10 years older than I am now, looking at this.
Would I be responding differently?
And if the answer is yes, that gives you a clue into where you might want to lean into next.
39:37
Also, kind of like what Scott said, sometimes you just need to think about what it is I want and don't want and sit with that.
And as we talked about, bringing this mindful, more awake and aware sense to your sexual experiences help.
39:52
And ultimately, you don't just intellectualize yourself into a better marriage to a better sexual experience.
Your body leads it to you.
You do it, you be it.
And that's how you experience it as well.
And give yourself a lot of grace, Give yourself a laugh.
Hey, this is a very human thing.
40:09
And we're going to just explore and bumble our way through this like everyone else and just enjoy the journey.
That's part of living well, I think.
40:19
Speaker 2
I like that.
40:20
Speaker 1
We're still learning a lot about this topic.
I think it's constantly learning about ourselves and each other through.
40:27
Speaker 2
Yeah, I love your philosophy.
That's great.
I love that.
40:32
Speaker 1
If people want to learn more about what you're doing, where can they find you?
40:36
Speaker 3
Well, I have a gift for your listeners.
So if you go to get your marriage on dot com slash marriage IQ all one word lowercase, no hyphens, get your marriage on dot com slash marriage IQ.
I have a few things that you'd otherwise have to pay for on my site but I'll give you for free. 1 is there's 101 creative ways to initiate sex.
40:56
Another one is a guide 16 pages long, 101 ways to spice up your sex life.
So it's just infusing more creativity.
Nice and too fun.
I also have links for, like you mentioned earlier with the Intimately Us app and I have other apps that I've also released.
41:13
We didn't talk about, but that intimately this app is great for couples that want to spice things up in the bedroom, fill that more, spark that aliveness in their relationship.
Also linked to my podcast and a few other resources too.
So it's a great kit and a bundle, and it's free for your listeners at Get Your marriage on dot com slash marriage IQ.
41:32
Speaker 2
Wonderful.
That is fascinating.
Thank you, Dan.
Thank.
41:35
Speaker 1
You so much.
41:36
Speaker 2
This has been great.
